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Patrick Rauland: Hello everyone, and welcome to the Indie Board Game Designers Podcast. Today, we're going to be talking with Rob Cramer who is the designer behind Turbo Drift, which is an 18-card racing micro game, and he's got a bunch of other games in the works. Rob, welcome to the show.

Rob Cramer: Happy to be here.

Patrick Rauland: Awesome. I did pronounce your last name right, Cramer?

Rob Cramer: Yes sir. Cramer.

Patrick Rauland: All right. Cool. I really want to talk about Turbo Drift, just because I play it and I love that game, but before we get there, how did you to get into board games and board game design?

Rob Cramer: I've been into board games for most of my life. I was one of those kids who would give my brothers board games for their birthday or for Christmas because I secretly wanted to play them. And so, it was a strange way to go about doing it. I got my brother Lord Of The Rings monopoly, Lord Of The Rings Stratego before I even really knew about modern board games. But one year in 2012, I believe, I was at a game store looking for a game for my wife because we played a lot of classic car games, and so I wanted to get one for her birthday.

Rob Cramer: And I came across one called Coloretto and it completely changed how I felt about games and what they could be. And it has opened the door into this wonderful world of board games, and it was all because of that little card game, so it was super cool.

Patrick Rauland: That's awesome.

Rob Cramer: But I never thought that stepping into a board game store would lead me to game design. That really came to be during the Dice Hate Me, they had a contest a few years ago for a 52 card game. So it opened up to any designer to design a 52 card game. That interested me, I didn't get one off the ground, but the next year, they had one for dexterity games, and that was one that I actually submitted my first design, Pizza Pronto, and it did not win or place or anything like that.

Rob Cramer: But it was definitely my first step.

Patrick Rauland: I want to go back to you buying your siblings board games for their birthdays and Christmas is genius. You are a planner, sir.

Rob Cramer: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That is definitely me.

Patrick Rauland: You're fulfilling the minimum requirements of getting them a game and it helps you.

Rob Cramer: Yes.

Patrick Rauland: And now I'm thinking there should be a game about this. Like everyone has to give everyone else gifts, but you somehow want to give them a gift that helps you.

Rob Cramer: Yes, a double sided gift.

Patrick Rauland: This sounds fantastic. This is awesome. So how did you get into a racing game? Because your first game is Pizza, how did you get into a racing game?

Rob Cramer: If you talk to me even a little bit about the game designs that I have, you'll know that I really love spatial elements in games. Whether that's a real space, like in Turbo Drift or if you're just moving along a board. The further the distance that you travel, the harder it is to get there. I graduated with a degree in geography, and so spatial relationships between pieces or cards or things on a board are very important to me.

Rob Cramer: And so, when I found a game called Techno Witches at a thrift store near me, it intrigued me greatly because it is a real space game about witches riding vacuums, flying through castles and trying to pick up a cat and race back to their own huts. This game is great, I love it a lot. It has some first player issues. I have to say that the box art is one of the ugliest things I've ever seen. But I was able to look past and see this really fun game.

Rob Cramer: As with the Dice Hate Me, the two contests that they had, Button Shy opened up their wallet game contest. Button Shy publishes 18 card games that fit into a vinyl wallet, and I was playing around with the idea of boiling down Techno Witches into an 18 card game to take 60 or so cardboard pieces and tracks and that kind of stuff into just 18 cards, that's how I got into that, and specifically the car aspect of it. I like cars.

Rob Cramer: I'm not that knowledgeable about them, but I was researching drifting and all that stuff got me really interested in that for sure.

Patrick Rauland: Did you just watch the Fast and Furious: Tokyo Drift?

Rob Cramer: Tokyo Drift was the first Fast and Furious movie that I saw, and it was in theaters. I think that movie gets a bad rap, I don't think it's the worst of the series, I think it has some really cool stunts and stuff. So yeah, drifting is a pretty incredible sport, and so boiling it down into something that isn't just a straightforward race where part of the chaos is part of how you drive, I really liked that going into Turbo Drift.

Patrick Rauland: That's awesome. I usually save this question for … I want to save this question for the end, but what other type of … I'm really curious, what other sort of mechanisms are you thinking about for other spatial games? Because it seems like, since you have that fondness for them, I'm curious what else are you thinking about?

Rob Cramer: It's tough because I would want to design a game that uses 3D space, where you can move side to side up and down or forward and backward, but the resources involved to design something in those dimensions would be, I guess prohibitively expensive to publish. So it's hard to get your heart set on something that you know will never see the light of day. A lot of a lot of games that I want to design have a spatial element in that you're either shifting things back and forth or you are twisting things.

Rob Cramer: In worker placement games, you send a worker to a space, and if you want to send a worker to another space, it costs you the same amount of time or resources to go into that space. If there is a chance for me to pick up a pawn, and move it somewhere else, that is something that I want to do in a game. I don't know if I have any specific new mechanisms to bring into the space, but that's what my focus, I guess, would be.

Patrick Rauland: That's really cool. I've been stalking you on Twitter for a little bit and I saw you had a game of the week-

Rob Cramer: Yes sir.

Patrick Rauland: … bring into work. Number one, what is it? Number two, does it help your design process?

Rob Cramer: So, the game of the week started when I started at my new job. I went into the break room and saw that they had a couple of yoga mats, a puzzle, and a couple boxes of Trivial Pursuit cards. And I thought that the break room could use a little bit livening up. And so, I wanted to bring board games into the workplace because I felt that it had helped me get the job in the first place, because I work in instructional design and I was able to, during interviews, say that I can interpret rules or regulations such as a food code and turn it into teachable, understandable English, so that we can help learners learn new stuff.

Rob Cramer: And so, this game of the week was an integration of how I can teach other people how to play a game and to show them new games other than Trivial Pursuit so that they can all play along with it. It definitely does help the design process because I actually play tested Turbo Drift with my co-workers.

Patrick Rauland: Oh, that's cool.

Rob Cramer: It was super cool and super helpful. It is crazy that people who spent the last few weeks playing published games, games that I really adore, for the next week to be, “Hey, I designed a game. Do you want to play it instead? It's black and white and I drew on the cards. You want to play?” My co-workers were very, very helpful and we've actually play tested a bunch of games that I've designed. They have been extremely helpful, and it all started because I brought a game to work.

Patrick Rauland: I work for myself but I'm now a little bit jealous because I'm … a game of the week will just be me playing a solo game, which is just not my thing. So, now I need to maybe like co-work once a week, and while we're coworking, play. I don't know, I need to do something so I can-

Rob Cramer: Most definitely. I highly recommend it.

Patrick Rauland: That's awesome. So you've gone through a couple … You made Turbo Drift, have any other been fully published?

Rob Cramer: There was actually one other game that Button Shy has published called Skyscrappers, and there was another entry to one of their contests, but this was for card games that were nine cards or less. So, half of the cards from Turbo Drift, and Skyscrappers is a party stacking game for I believe eight players. And you are building a tower by yourself or with other people because you have these folded cards, kind of like in Rhino Hero, you line them up and then on the count of three, each person points to two cards, one with their left, one with their right.

Rob Cramer: And if any other people point at the same card, you have to pick up that card with that person and put it on the tower together. I wanted to have a game like Rhino Hero that ends when the tower falls, but I wanted that to happen multiple times during a game. And so, these cards are folded in weird ways so that the tower gets to seven cards and then is able to fall over with the same structural integrity as a Rhino Hero Tower that gets up to three or four feet. That was actually technically my first published game. So that was really interesting.

Patrick Rauland: I'm curious, how do you … so you've got two games all the way published. Now that you've done that, what have you changed about your process?

Rob Cramer: What I have changed or what I want to change, what I want to change is I want to get games to the prototype stage faster. I write in a board game design notebook almost every day, and I actually have a game that I've written about 19 pages on, and I haven't even built a prototype of it yet. And so, right now, it's I don't know if it will work because I haven't played it yet. Right now it's just taking up space my notebook.

Rob Cramer: And so what I would hope to work on in the future is getting a prototype out as fast as possible so that I can know if it's worth even writing one more page about.

Patrick Rauland: Totally. You mentioned the game design notebook, I kind of want to dive in on that. Is this something you carry on your person? Is it something digital like Evernote? And, I guess, what stuff are you writing down in it, roughly?

Rob Cramer: I have a notebook that I carry with me almost all the time. I've filled about two other notebooks, but I write down whatever comes to mind if I'm working on a specific game idea, I write whatever's in there. I'm a pretty visual thinker, and so I write a lot of diagrams what a game would look like, what kind of combinations on the cards I would need, lots of drawings, I would say. Drawings cover up a lot of it.

Rob Cramer: I'm not very good at drawing, but it at least helps me visualize what a game would look like before I start making cards or anything for it. But I also keep notes on Google Keep if the notebook isn't nearby because the computer has a much better handwriting than I do. This game design notebook has been fantastic and I highly recommend writing down your thoughts, because as much as you say you think you'll remember something, you are not. The dullest pencil is better than the sharpest mind, so just write it down and you will be thankful for that.

Patrick Rauland: Sure. I write down everything in Evernote. I was curious if you like … the physical one sounds great because then you could draw, whereas the Evernote one, unless I want on me all the time, yeah. Cool.

Rob Cramer: The drawing has been super helpful. You diagram how cards are going to look, how the board state is going to look. That's been my go-to drawing stuff.

Patrick Rauland: What's the best money you've ever spent as a game designer?

Rob Cramer: I would have to say I found Techno Witches at the thrift store, and it was one dollar. I made sure to go through it, inventory all the pieces and made sure that it was a 100% complete, and that would definitely be the best money because it spawned the largest game that I've designed yet, and it actually helped spur a completion of a game design. Because there are games that I've bought specifically for the pieces or for the board, but it hasn't led directly to a solid game design yet.

Patrick Rauland: Well, let me change the question a little bit. What would you do, because obviously we can't find that exact store and find that game, so, what is something that someone else can buy that you would recommend?

Rob Cramer: I think we've already talked about it, the game design journal. I think buying something that is the right size for you, whether you want it large enough that it's more of a college rule sheet of paper or if it's something that can fit in your pocket so it's super convenient, I think that spending money on a design journal, it doesn't have to be the nicest, but it's still something that can just be a really good repository for ideas.

Rob Cramer: I definitely recommend a game design journal for anyone.

Patrick Rauland: Love it. That's so simple and it's great. You can buy it on Amazon in I'm sure two minutes.

Rob Cramer: Definitely.

Patrick Rauland: So do you have any things that you've been working on that you just haven't been able to get into game? Like some mechanic or some theme that you just can't quite get it to work yet?

Rob Cramer: My white whale is a shuffle and deal game, or not even shuffle and deal, just a shuffle game, where the game is just a deck of cards, you shuffle it and that is the set up. It is such a simple concept. There are games like Loot or Circus [Flacadi 00:16:49] those are two games of my inspiration that are games that you can shuffle, deal out to players, and start playing, after rules explanation, of course.

Rob Cramer: But, you don't have to sort through cards, you don't have to deal cards out to an array or display or anything like that. You don't have player aids. I want to have such a simple game that you can take out the box, you can take out the rules, you can shuffle, and then you can start the game from right there. And that is so tough because everyone wants a starting point, you want to have a direction to go. And so, if you start from the very beginning looking at a blank deck, it has no direction.

Rob Cramer: And so, that has been my toughest challenge. I start one every few months in my game notebook and then something else just takes over because it is … I've tried a real space sea exploration game, I've tried a city building game. Nothing has been sticking and that is definitely one that I want to keep on working on.

Patrick Rauland: That sounds great. And I can't think of anything like that. I can't think of anything like that right now. It's so funny, other than the deck of cards. Like other than a generic deck of cards, I can't think of anything where you just shuffle and go.

Rob Cramer: I'm definitely all for simplifying mechanisms and setups and that kind of stuff. If you can remove something, I'm all for it if it makes the game better.

Patrick Rauland: Yeah. Love it. What is an underappreciated game that you really like?

Rob Cramer: Costa Rica.

Patrick Rauland: What is that?

Rob Cramer: Costa Rica is a game designed by … I'm pulling it up right now. I want to say Matthew Gilbert. No. Costa Rica, I should have had this prepared because I know Costa Rica is one of my favorites. It's Matthew Dunston and Bret J. Gilbert. They are a design team that work on a lot of games. Some of the recent ones are Fairy Tile and Pyramids. They've designed a lot of games, and this one came out from Mayfair a couple of years ago.

Rob Cramer: And it is a surprise, surprise, it is a spatial push your luck game. You set out these tiles of jungle and swamp lands and mountains into this island, and then you set explorers around these different points. And as an expedition leader, you point to a tile, flip it over and to decide whether you keep it or offer it to other players. If nobody wants any of them, then you just keep ongoing.

Rob Cramer: What's cool is that you can decide where to go. So the forests are the safest places to go. The wetlands are a little bit more dangerous, then the mountains are the most dangerous, but the more dangerous a place is, the more likely you are to find more animals which are worth more points at the end of the game. And so, it is push your luck with a lot more control than a lot of push your luck games. And what's even cooler is that you can guide these expeditions so that you can cut off other players and the groups that they're cutting through the jungle.

Rob Cramer: It mixes a lot of very cool things of spatial movement, of push your luck, of set collection, and it is just a really smooth game. And I love it so much in and I haven't heard anyone talking about it, but I love it a lot.

Patrick Rauland: I've never heard about it, I'll have to check this one out. I will add it to my BGG want-to-play list.

Rob Cramer: Definitely. Yes sir.

Patrick Rauland: When I think of spatial games, the first thing that comes to … To me, I'd say the epitome of a spatial game is Robo Rally. I have to know, what do you think of Robo Rally?

Rob Cramer: I have not played Robo Rally specifically, and I know there's a lot of controversy behind it, specifically with Richard Garfield and the publishers and how his edition has almost never been published. That part of it really, really fascinates me; how the relationship between a publisher and a designer can break down over this game. It's super interesting. I've never had the opportunity to play it because it was out of print for so long and the new edition hasn't come highly recommended. I'm guessing you're a big fan?

Patrick Rauland: I am a fan. My one thing about it is you tend to need a lot of time, and depending on who you're playing with, like some people just don't have spatial awareness and then it's a miserable game for them. And I think with other games, it's like, oh they're … I think when I talk to someone I can go, “Oh, they're not super analytical, so I'm not going to play this very mathy game.” But just from talking to someone, you can't tell at all if they're spatially aware.

Patrick Rauland: I tend not to recommend it, but it is in my collection. I have a very small collection and I keep it small, but Robo Rally is in that collection because I think it's one of the best spatial games out there. I really like it.

Rob Cramer: Nice.

Patrick Rauland: How much time do you spend researching a game or maybe how much time does it take you to fully design a game?

Rob Cramer: Research for a game, I need to be a little bit better at. Just because I want to design a game with as much care as the subject deserves, I feel a little bit bad about Turbo Drift in that, I want a little bit more of the … I learned so much about the history of where Turbo Drift comes from and where drifting comes from and how it is still a popular sport around the world, and how different countries use different cars or different courses or different ways of running a drift race.

Rob Cramer: What came down in Turbo Drift was a generic version of drifting, but with research … I think one of the worst things that can happen to your game is if you do something either culturally insensitive or cultural appropriation. That is not something that a game designer should be aiming to do at all. And so research can only help in every single way, whether that's the background that you're designing from or the people that you want to work with, or the people that you want to get advice from.

Rob Cramer: The amount of research that you put into a game is super important, but for me specifically, I research or design games probably a half an hour a day. It really depends on my mood or how invested I am in a project. Sometimes I go into a feud state and design one game specifically for a few hours, or I have dry spells where I don't design anything for a month. I'm trying to figure out why a design is something I'm still working on.

Patrick Rauland: Let me ask this in a different way. How long from start to finish, does Turbo Drift take you, in terms of days, months or years?

Rob Cramer: Turbo Drift, the contest I believe opened in February, and the end date for submission was April 30th. So that was about three months of design for what I submitted. And then there were four or five more months of play testing with my work group and what Jason is developing for Turbo Drift to finally reach the market. But when we're talking about Skyscrappers, that was probably a week; from idea, to submitting, to finalizing.

Rob Cramer: Because we could play it so quickly and we could reiterate stuff just out of the blue because you're just dealing with nine cards, you're not having to rewrite stuff on cards, because that's another big thing for me, is that I don't like text on cards or any other components because I want to design games that are language independent. And so that's another thing that I admire about Techno Witches or Costa Rica, is that these games are language independent. And so the only thing you would have to reprint are the rules in a different language.

Rob Cramer: Skyscrappers was super, super fast compared to Turbo Drift. The larger the game for me, the more time it takes.

Patrick Rauland: Wow. I never realized that … Turbo Drift was the exception of the rule book, is language … Like none of the cards have any text on them, it's just like … I don't know. Speaking of pictures, On BoardGameGeek, there's some people who have uploaded custom cars. I think I saw Batmobile, and a DeLorean and some other cool racing cars. What do you think about the fact that some people who presumably love your game are like uploading their own custom artwork to a board game geek?

Rob Cramer: It is bonkers. And what's even more bonkers is that you need to check out the Turbo Drift Now, this is pod racing variant.

Patrick Rauland: What?!

Rob Cramer: Someone in Germany, [inaudible 00:27:23], he made a version of Turbo Drift that was podracing, and he did it so well and so good, it is incredible. I am blown away that someone in an entirely different country, would pick up my game and put one of my favorite franchises on top of it. It is unfathomable.

Patrick Rauland: That is so cool. I love that. I can't even imagine. I'm just like, can you like fly over obstacles or?

Rob Cramer: It's exactly Turbo Drift, it's just on [inaudible 00:28:10], no specific modifications rules wise, but the trails of the pods and the starting card are all just wonderful. It's so good.

Patrick Rauland: I'll have to check it out. I guess, my question is, I don't know what my question is. I think what I'm trying to get at is like, what did you do that … because I looked at lots of games and I don't see really huge popular games and I don't see pictures of fans uploading their own art. Do you think you tapped into something there? What happens?

Rob Cramer: I think Turbo Drift is very easy to customize. There are other games that could have fan art or fan customizations, but being 18 cards is super easy to change. I come from a heavy print and play background, because print and play games were some of the first ones that I ever got into because my wife and I lived in Washington DC for a little bit. We were freshly married, didn't have a lot of money to spend, and I worked at a sign shop and I would use the scraps to make a print and play games on my break time.

Rob Cramer: And so anything with a small page count is like gold in the print and play community. And so Turbo Drift fits that perfectly, where you can swap out a card or swap out a theme pretty easily without having to change that much. And so I think it fits those people who want to customize their game pretty well.

Patrick Rauland: That's so cool. That's really cool. We're getting near the end here. What does success look like in the board game world to you?

Rob Cramer: Board games success to me specifically is having games that I'm proud of having my name on them. I can't tie my success to monetary gains or to working with specific publishers or that kind of stuff. Those are goals that I can have and those are goals that I can achieve. But success ultimately boils down to games that I'm proud of. And so Turbo Drift, I'm very proud of, Skyscrappers I'm very proud of. And there are games that I'm looking for publishers or will never be published that other people have played and that I'm proud of.

Rob Cramer: And so I consider myself a successful game designer because I know that I put everything I could into a game, and that other people can enjoy it. And so I can't look for external validation for success, it has to come from within.

Patrick Rauland: Pow! That's my mind exploding. That's awesome.

Rob Cramer: I hope that made a little bit of sense.

Patrick Rauland: No. That absolutely did. And i think I've talked to a couple few people recently about this and I've asked them this, and actually people tend to say this … I assumed people would say, “I want to have a Kickstarter that hits a million dollars.” That's kind of what I assumed. And people seem more, genuine isn't the right word, but people seem more like, “I'm doing this for the love of the craft.” which I think is amazing.

Rob Cramer: Yeah. I think it would be very hard to stay a game designer if you're only in it for money. I think you'd be next to impossible because it requires a dedication that isn't going to reward you with money immediately or ever, so you need to have some passion behind it.

Patrick Rauland: Wow. All right. Well, I'm going to end the questions on that, but I do have a game for you. Have you ever heard of Underrated Overrated or Overrated Underrated?

Rob Cramer: No. Tell me all about it.

Patrick Rauland: Great. Full disclosure to you and the listeners, I stole it in podcast called The Indicator. They deal with economics, but I'm doing in boardgames, so I'm stealing their stuff. That's just too bad. Here's what it is. I'm going to give you a phrase, an idea, a concept and I'm going to force you to take a position and I'm going to force you to say, if it's either underrated or overrated. I could say sunshine, and you would be like, “Oh, sunshine is overrated, I hate getting sunburns.” Something like that.

Rob Cramer: That sounds like me.

Patrick Rauland: All right. The first is going to be easy. Microgames, underrated overrated.

Rob Cramer: Underrated.

Patrick Rauland: All right. Why is that?

Rob Cramer: Because there are already so many games that have such a large space that take up on their shelves. Actually, that's the wrong argument, the argument that I'm going to make is that, 18 card games have a much wider design space than a lot of sandbox, large box games, because it forces you to think in different ways rather than trying to add something else. I think 18 card games or other types of micro games still have a lot of space to go for, what kinds of games they can do, how many players they can support, how long they can go, what kind of experiences they can deliver.

Rob Cramer: I think that there's a lot more space that can go on in there.

Patrick Rauland: I love it. All right. This one should be easy, peanut butter, overrated, underrated?

Rob Cramer: I'm going to say, overrated and I it's bonkers. But I think I've had too many peanut butter things that I don't enjoy. There are peanut butter like protein bars or peanut butter protein drinks, kind of an artifi … I guess I'm mad more at artificial peanut butter than real peanut butter, because I do really enjoy … Have you heard of PB fit, dehydrated peanut butter?

Patrick Rauland: No.

Rob Cramer: That stuff's so good. Trader Joe's dark Chocolate Peanut Butter Cups. Those are fantastic. But peanut butter has to be used in the right way in order for it to shine. It can't just be slapped on something to make it automatically good.

Patrick Rauland: All right. I wrote this one down before we talked. I'm curious what your thoughts are. Personal play mats or tableaus overrated, underrated?

Rob Cramer: I'm going to say, overrated, because I as a designer would want other people to either engage in the same thing or, I don't want to say that I don't like multiplayer solitaire games, and I don't think a lot of games that get that label fit that description entirely. But what I do want are games that you can talk to other people about, including people that you've played the game with.

Rob Cramer: If I have a personal tableau or personal play mat, there are going to be things that I do on my play mat that no one will even bother looking at for the most part, and telling other people what happened to me isn't interesting. If I can tell other people what happened to another person or to us as a group, I find that a lot more interesting and I think a lot more people will engage in that rather than this is what happened to me.

Patrick Rauland: I like it. All right. And last one, Legos, overrated, underrated?

Rob Cramer: I feel like such a negative person, but I'm going to say, overrated.

Patrick Rauland: Oh, boy. I have to deal with listeners now.

Rob Cramer: Okay, yeah. That's fine, they can direct it all at me. I'm at Twitter, @RobtheCramer, you can yell at me there, but I think that … I mean, you might know more about the world of Lego than I do, but the expense that goes into it is so darn high that it just becomes prohibitively expensive to those that I think could build great things, so something like Minecraft is a little bit better of an outlet for them. It takes away that physical design space for sure, but they can still create some cool things.

Rob Cramer: I don't think Lego has a monopoly on creativity, which it sometimes seems like.

Patrick Rauland: Fair enough.

Rob Cramer: It seems like that was a much more pointed opinion than I ever thought it would ever have about Legos.

Patrick Rauland: For me, it's like once a year, I tend to go to the Lego store and get like one kit. And it's exciting, but you're right, it is very expensive. Like I really want to get one of those like the Millennium Falcon kits. Where like all of the panels are removable and all the Lego mini things are inside. And yeah, it's pretty expensive. Totally agree with you.

Patrick Rauland: Well, Rob, thanks you for being on the show. This has been really, really, really great. You already mentioned it, but where can people find you online?

Rob Cramer: I live at two main places, Twitter, @RobtheCramer, and the Google Plus board game group. That is my place to hang out.

Patrick Rauland: Wait, Google plus is still around?

Rob Cramer: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Google plus is still around and the board game group is 42,000 members strong, so don't count them out. I have a lot of good experiences with people there, we do a Secret Santa exchange every year. We do polls, we do features, there's gamer of the month. I only mention this because I am the gamer of the month for the month of May. But yeah, you should come on by. We have a user specifically who does long term test reports where he brings up old games that people haven't talked about recently and say, “Hey, this game is 15 years old, how does it hold up over time?”

Rob Cramer: And people can say what they've had or the last time they played it or games that do things better. There's a lot of fun discussion over on board game Google Plus side.

Patrick Rauland: That's awesome. Great. Well, thank you for being on here again.

Rob Cramer: Of course, Patrick.

Patrick Rauland: Awesome. By the way, for all of the listeners, I've heard that if you like this podcast and leave a review, Rob will personally Drag Race with you. I can't promise it, it's just something I've heard. All right. Well, that's all for me. You can find me at Indie Board Gamer. Indieboardgamedesigners.com, and you can follow me on Twitter, @BFTrick. Happy designing.