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Patrick Rauland: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Indie Board Game Designers podcast, where I sit down with a different independent game designer every single week, and we talk about their experience in game design and the lessons they've learned along the way. 

My name is Patrick Rauland, and today I'll be talking with Laura Erwin, who designed Potions Please, which is a 2-4 player set collection game where you get to collect ingredients and make Potions Please. It should be on the Game Crafter's crowd sale when this episode airs, and I will, of course, have links to that in the show notes and likely as well in the podcast notes. Laura, welcome to the show.

Laura Erwin: Hi, Patrick.

Introduction

Patrick: I like to– We chatted for like 20 minutes before the show, but I'd like to introduce you to my audience, so I have some lightning round questions. All right?

Laura: Sure.

Patrick: OK, first one. You have a fun game all about brightly colored potions, if you could make one magical potion a thing in the real world, which potion would you choose?

Laura: Most of the Potions Please in my games are all very connected to the game, but what I would want really is a time-traveling potion that would slow down time or speed up time, because I'm always super busy, and I'm handling– I have so many irons in the fire that I'm just handling all these different things.

Patrick: When would you want to speed up time?

Laura: When you're at the doctor's office and you're waiting.

Patrick: There you go. Got it, OK. I like that.

Laura: Or work.

Patrick: Or work? Yeah. I get that, especially for monotonous tasks. I get that. OK, I have a language question for you. Language questions don't normally come up on the show. Is there such a thing as a male witch? And if so, what are they called?

Laura: There is such thing as a male witch, but they are just called “Witches.” In designing Potions Please, I looked up a lot of information about witch culture and went on Witch Tube, which is like a YouTube all about witches. 

I talked to some local witches in my town, and they're all really helpful and have amazing information, that's where I got all my ingredients in my game, but male witches are just called “Witches.” Anyone can be a witch.

Patrick: That's exciting. I think I'm used to– Maybe it's traditional DnD-type environments where women are “Witches” and men are warlocks, so it's just cool to hear that anyone can be a witch.

Laura: Yeah. “Warlock,” I was told not to call a man a warlock because it means “Oath-breaker.”

Patrick: What?

Laura: I don't know how true that is, but that's what I heard. That's why I never call a male witch a warlock.

Patrick: You are educating me. Thank you very much. So then the third question that I like to ask is, what is a game you play with someone every single time at a con?

Laura: A game I usually play with someone at every con is, I love Star Realms, and I do Star Realms tournaments at pretty much every con I go to. I always try to get some Star Realms games in, either at the hotel or in a tournament setting.

Patrick: I don't think I've ever played in a tournament for that game. How are those? Like, super competitive?

Laura: They're not that competitive. It's not like Magic, and it's just a basic tournament. But I did win the first year that [both Potions Please and] Star Realms came out, and I got both prizes. It was great.

How did you get into board games and board game design?

Patrick: What? Very cool. First real question is, how did you get into board games and board game design?

Laura: I always was interested in board games, like the basics. Monopoly, Trivial Pursuit, the very basic family games. In high school I started playing Dungeons and Dragons, and I started going to a local game store, and that's where I opened up to a lot more interesting games like Ascension and Carcassonne, and a lot more of the Settlers of Catan group, and then I liked board game design. It happened after I had an idea. 

Jake Parker is an illustrator, and he talked about how, if you want to do something, you should go out there and make a project and do it. I had gone to PAX Unplugged and heard a panel on tabletop art, and it got me interested to make this game because I had all these great art ideas. So I was like, “I need to make this game,” and then I had to learn how to make a game, and I was like, “This is very hard.”

Patrick: When you started making games, was it because you were inspired by art? Is that what I understood?

Laura: Yes.

Where did Potions Please come from?

Patrick: That is cool that you were inspired by some art and wanted to make a game about it. I've heard of that a couple times, but it's not super common. I like hearing that. Where did Potions Please come from?

Laura: Potions Please came after I went to a convention, and I showcased my first prototype, which was a deck builder with like 300 cards. It was insane, and I never want to look at it again, and then I was like, “We need to get back to basics on how to make a game,” and I wanted to study the craft of game design. 

I was looking at a basic game like Go Fish, and I was like, “How can I make this different? What essentially is Go Fish?” I was like, “Go Fish is a set collection game? I'm going to use this as a format of asking people for cards and sharing, and then make that into a set collection game that's interesting instead of Go Fish.”

Patrick: Sure, it's cool. But you made the conscious decision of “I want to base it on this game and then add a whole bunch of stuff to it, but I want to base it on this game.”

Laura: Yeah. It helped me with figuring out scale and what the parameters were, and I gave myself a month and a half deadline for my first prototype, and I had it premiere at a convention. So, I was forcing myself.

Patrick: What? OK, so we got to talk about that. How do you make it in a month and a half, and then have it appear at a convention? Is this like a playtesting convention?

Laura: Yeah.

Patrick: OK. I'm like, “Did you get a booth?” I thought– I was slightly– This is more like you show up with a game, and you get to play with other playtesters?

Laura: Yeah. I showed up at a local convention in my town, and I had people asking to buy it, and it was a little prototype, and I was like, “No, this is something.” That gave me the push through to be like, “You should finish this, and you need to develop this.”

Patrick: That is cool. I like hearing that. I love that you pushed yourself that far that fast. Was the convention the deadline? Does that make sense? Like, did you decide on a month and a half because the convention was coming that soon, or was it a coincidence?

Laura: I heard about the convention, and they were like, “It's mid-October.” I was like, “Fine. My game is going to be done for then.” And then, I went into gear doing art and coming up with the mechanics and trying to figure out everything and playtesting it every week up until the convention.

Patrick: Awesome. So before the convention, what playtests did you get in? Because I know for me, there's playtests with friends and family, which is one type of playtest, but then I get usually much more nuanced feedback at a game designer's playtesting event. So like, was it–? How did you get the play testing done?

Laura: I definitely played with friends and family, and I pulled it out whenever I was in a space at any point in the game, and whenever I made a change. But I also have a weekly game design group I go to with a bunch of different game designers, and I'd pretty much pull it up every single time. 

They all gave amazing feedback because they're veterans in the industry, they know way more than I do, and they're really helpful.

Did you run into any design challenges and how did you overcome them?

Patrick: Fantastic. OK, so were there any design challenges you ran into? Was there anything that stumped you and took you a while to figure out before you got it?

Laura: One of the largest design challenges I had in designing Potions Please, was I didn't understand how a turn progression should work. I would keep throwing cards at a thing and be like, “We'll have 100 cards or 200 cards,” and basically inflating the deck where people wouldn't get to the cards they needed to make potions. 

So I had to learn how to edit and how to figure out the math of how many cards are necessary to play this game and make it a minimum viable product.

Patrick: Can you give me an idea of this? And by that I mean, was your maximum 150 cards and now it's down to 25? What is the range here?

Laura: My maximum was around 150 cards. I had action cards, I had larger cards, and I had a bunch of ingredients. Then I turned it down to 98 cards in total, but that was adding these potion cards that didn't exist, so it's more like 50 ingredients cards when it used to be 100 ingredients cards.

Patrick: So overall, you cut over a third of all the cards, and then you added a couple ones back in, but that's cool. And it sounds like you also got rid of a type of card, action cards?

Laura: Yeah. I relied on the basic first things you learn in playing regular family board games like Uno, “Lose a turn,” “Draw four,” things like that. I was using action cards as that, but then I realized that it came up with “When can I use this? When can I use that?” 

It came up with all these different issues, and so then I came up with creating a turn order and having it be the potions that you make is when you can use your power.

Patrick: OK, so you get powers, which maybe relate to actions or are similar to actions based off–?

Laura: Yeah. I basically took all my actions, and I made them into potions.

Patrick: I love that. That's a cool way of doing it. I always want to ask, did you figure this out on playtest one and then playtest two it was done imperfect? Or was this a couple weeks? Like, did it take you a while, or you just got it in the first playtest?

Laura: I've played tested it for around six months, and I do these trials where I have that month and a half of first game design where it's a workable game, but it's not refined enough. Then I go back, I let it sit for a month and a half, and then I do another month and a half of maybe reworking and adding those potion cards, and then really trying it out again. 

Then towards the end, when I knew another convention was coming up, I was like “OK. Now I got to get into high gear,” and I did another month and a half of focused playtesting and refining it. So it's nice to take a little break from the game and then come back to it because the ideas you have are better, and you're also giving your playtesters a little bit of a break to think of new ideas.

Can you tell us a little bit about The Game Crafter’s Crowd Sale platform and why you decided to go that route instead of Kickstarter?

Patrick: I love that. This is a cool story. So one of things I wanted to talk to you about is I believe you are the first guest who is using the Game Crafter's crowd sale platform instead of Kickstarter. 

Can you tell us a little bit about that service and compare and contrast against Kickstarter, like what is different, and then why you decided to go that route instead of Kickstarter? Just because that's like– I think Kickstarter is the default choice, so whenever I see someone make the not default, I want to know why.

Laura: Yeah. Potions Please was my first project. It's my first game that I've made to fruition where it's going to be sold, and really it's a product, and it's not just a prototype anymore, so I wanted to showcase that I could make a good quality game. 

The best way I could do that was to put it on a platform that didn't have as much risk, but also allowing me to just let it be its own thing. Game Crafter does all of the housing of my game, it does all the production of my game, and then I make a 70% cut of whatever I make off the game. 

That is really– It's a nice way to ease myself into game design and creating a product without having to deal with “Now you need fulfillment. Now you need to figure out how to ship things. Now you need to figure out how to super market things because now it's having costs and fees and everything's added to it.” My friend [inaudible].

Patrick: Yeah, I hear you. I've done all those things, and it's a lot to learn. Your way sounds like an easier on-ramp is probably the best way of saying it, which is good.

Laura: Yeah, it's definitely lower risk and lower reward. But for me, it was the best choice because I can prove that I can do it and that I can show because I don't have a large following yet. I feel like with Kickstarter, the field is so oversaturated, and you need to have a standout game and also a following and also be great at marketing.

Patrick: Also, I think launch it at the right time, which is just luck. If you launch at the wrong time and there's another giant game at the same time, you might lose half your pledges. There's a lot of extra stuff going on.

Laura: Yeah.

Can you tell us about taking your game to conventions for playtesting, to meet publishers and/or to build an email list?

Patrick: Cool. OK, so you mentioned that you took your game to conventions. I know you talked a little bit about playtesting, but did you also go to meet publishers? Did you try to build an email list? Did you do–? Or was it just playtesting, and that was what conventions were there for?

Laura: I did mostly playtesting at conventions like PAX Unplugged and OctaCon, which was the one at my local town, and the conventions just around locally. But when I went out to PAX East I spoke to some publishers, and I went to this thing called 60 Second Pitch where you're supposed to pitch your game to a bunch of game designers and publishers, and I didn't get into the main panel where they set it, but afterwards they let me pitch. I cried. It was awful. 

[Inaudible] was like, “No. It's fine. Your game is really good.” He's like, “It's fine. Do you have a sell sheet? I'll take it.” I was a mess because I was just so anxious talking to him. And he's like, “I'm just a person.” It was insane, but they were all– They gave me such good feedback about how to market my game, and maybe if I needed to re-theme my game and how to speak about my game. 

And then I also at the last convention I went to, which is my home convention, the one I work for. I volunteered every year. The Long Island Tabletop Gaming Expo, I had a little booth there that was in the playtesting area, and I collected 45 emails, which is pretty good for a small convention, and I had over 90 people play my game over the weekend.

Patrick: Both of those numbers are fantastic. I actually just want to go back to how you did some publisher speed dating, which I've done. And it is very stressful. I know for me, I stumbled over my words for at least the first five publishers and the first five people that sat down. 

Then when they– If they don't get it and you see their eyes glaze over, you're like “Oh God. Is the game bad? Or is it just my explanation?” It's rough, so I'm glad to hear that other people find it slightly stressful, but it's also nice to hear you were taken care of. [Inaudible] or whoever is like, “It's all good. Just tell me about the game. I'm just a person.” That's cool.

Laura: Yeah, they were all– Everyone I've met in the game designing community has been great in talking to me about my game and also just being a genuine and really helpful person.

You created all of the art for your game, what was your process?

Patrick: Fantastic. You also mentioned doing the art, so do you have–? Maybe let's start with this. Do you have a process for creating art, and do you have a background in creating art, or did you have to learn that?

Laura: My process for creating art is I usually find an aesthetic that I really look for and a theme that I really connect with, like I'm working now on a roller derby game, and that's an aesthetic I love, but also witches are an aesthetic I love, and it really feels like at this time we've been having a renaissance of the witch with all these shows and products that are coming out. 

I usually start with Pinterest and going through that, and then just doodling and seeing what comes up, and building out what I want my game to be. I am a costume designer, and I work for a Halloween costume company, so I'm surrounded by witchy things all day that I'm just like, “This feels very natural, very easy.”

Patrick: That's pretty cool. I like that. But do you have a background in design, or did you ever teach yourself, or are you an illustrator? How does all that work?

Laura: I went to school for fashion design, so I have a background in fashion illustrations. I'm good at drawing shoes and the clothes on the figures, but we didn't really focus on drawing lotion bottles and cats and all these other things, so I had to teach myself after college about illustration. 

I took a lot of SVS learn classes, and I've been following Jake Parker and his tutorials, and that helped me develop my style. As well as I joined the tabletop art and design group, and I started speaking, I got a mentor in it, and he was amazing and fantastic, and he helped push my aesthetic.

Patrick: Very cool. Where is this? Is this on Facebook, is this on BGG, is this somewhere else?

Laura: It's on Facebook. It's the Art & Graphic Design for Tabletop Games group.

Patrick: Very cool, I'll have to find that. So, listeners, I will find that and add it to the show notes. You took some classes, did you take classes just for board games or were you taking classes before you got onto this board game train?

Laura: I was interested in making a product, where I was like, “I'll sell clothes or books, or something like that.” But I didn't have a vehicle for it, and game design was great for that because you have a set number of things you have to do, and it's a very confined amount of things, so you're just like “OK. I need 40 potion bottles. Let's get started.” 

So I can focus on that, and I can work on a scope of a game, and I don't have to focus on being a magnum opus comic book. I can be like, “40 potions. That's not a comic book.”

Patrick: Right. Cool. I love that you did all this stuff. So far, it sounds like you've taught yourself and just done– What do I want to say? Like, you dove in headfirst or into the deep end.

Laura: Yeah, I definitely take a project, and then I absorb myself into it for months on end.

Do you have a white whale of game design? 

Patrick: That's a way to get it done. That's great. OK, so let me– That's what I'm taking away so far, so I have a question here. Is there something that you couldn't get to work? Is there a white whale of design that you're like, “I'm going to do this thing, and it's going to be amazing,” and you couldn't get it to work?

Laura: My roller derby game was my deck builder that was 300 cards, which was insane, and I worked on that for the first six months of game design. I did the thing that most novice game designers do, where they go, “I'm going to make a game that no one's ever seen before,” which is a terrible idea. 

There's a reason why no one's ever made that game before, and it's because it's not a game. Usually, you should have a mechanic, so I had to learn from the bottom of “How do you pick a mechanic? How do you make a game?” And then moving into a deck builder is just a gargantuan project, and it takes a lot more work than– You need to be very skilled and have a lot of training to do that.

Patrick: Awesome.

Laura: I moved away from the deck builder too.

Patrick: I was thinking of the art, just 200-300 cards. Even if there's lots of duplicates or triplicates or whatever, that's probably like 50-100 pieces of art, which is probably exhausting.

Laura: Yeah, and I did each roller derby team, which had 5-10 players. So I had to do 40 characters, and I was so tired at the end.

Patrick: OK, so let me ask you this. Because some advice that you do hear pretty often in the board game world is to not start doing the illustrations, do a little bit of graphic design, help your playtesters, but to not do illustrations until you're fairly confident that the game is going to get made. 

But it sounds like you started doing illustrations for this game, was that because you didn't know better at the time? Or is that because you enjoy doing illustrations, and it helps your process?

Laura: I was told by a lot of my friends to not do the art until you've really cemented your mechanics, but I really connect with a theme of a game, and I really connect with that, so I feel like if I had brought a paper prototype to the convention that I first had maybe people wouldn't have responded as well as when they see that there's cute potions and ingredients and they actually see what the game actually looks like. 

Because a lot about a set collection game is a set collection game until you add elements to it, so I feel like you need enough information, maybe the cards aren't perfect, or maybe you have a picture on a blank card, but you have something that people can connect to. Because that's what they're going to remember.

Patrick: Yeah, I don't think many people would ask to buy your game if it's just place holder art. So, I think you did it and I think part of your good reception is probably the art. I give you kudos on that.

Laura: I was also in full costume, and I had a cauldron. I got a lot of people to come to my table that way.

Patrick: OK, so you got to tell me about that. You dress up in a witch costume? I think I've seen some of those pictures somewhere online. Were you dressed up in a full witch costume and had a cauldron?

Laura: Yeah, I made a witch costume, and then I made the hat, and I had a little plastic cauldron, and I had a poster, I focused on making my game– Even if my game wasn't fully ready, I wanted to build a brand around my game. I was like, “I'm going to present myself and make myself known.” 

I think at every convention I've gotten a lot of people just to come over to me because I'm so colorful and I'm wearing a costume, and now especially because my game has a lot of– A lot of kids play it. People up to six-year-olds can even play my game, and they're very interested because I'm wearing a costume, and there's candy in a cauldron. They're like, “Yes. I need to come over here and learn.”

Patrick: What great feedback, or what great advice. Because I've been to a lot of playtesting events and it is sometimes hard to get playtesters, but if you're in a costume and you have candy in a cauldron, that's two reasons that I want to go up to you and talk to you.

Laura: It's definitely– Especially if it's a family environment, you look family-friendly, and you look like someone who's approachable.

Patrick: Yeah, absolutely. Are there any games out there that inspire you and make you want to make other games?

Laura: Games that inspire me, I would say, are my friends games inspire me a lot. I like to see their progression and see them publish, and I freak out. I'm like, “Oh my God.” My friend just finished– Is still doing his Kickstarter, but he had his Kickstarter funded, this game called LOTS, which is a building block game.

Patrick: I saw that.

Laura: Yeah, it's really cool. It's one of my favorite games. It's really fun to play, and then there's also other games like Star Realms is always my go-to at every party. But I also like to really look into tile building games like Carcassonne, the classics like that. 

But those games that my friends make are always like, “I've seen this process go from nothing to a final product.” They're so exciting.

Patrick: Yeah, absolutely. I played a giant version– I'm pretty sure it was LOTS at either Gen Con or Origins. Did your friend bring a giant version of that game?

Laura: Yes.

Patrick: Cool. So I not only saw it on Kickstarter, but I got to play a giant version of it. Listeners, I will try to find a picture of me playing that game because that is a fun game. I enjoyed it.

Laura: Yeah, there's a video of me somewhere playing this game in a bar. Because he was like, “Can I move all these tables and set up this giant version of this game?” And I'm like, “This is incredible.” It's part of that thing, building a brand. 

People will remember you because you had a giant version of your building blocks, and people will remember you if you were wearing a costume, and you have to do it in an approachable, friendly, and professional way.

What one resource would you recommend to another indie game designer or an aspiring game designer?

Patrick: Now you have me thinking that my next game has to be small by default, but have a giant version, and I'm not sure what type of game is good at that, like what games lend themselves to be made giant. 

But I will have to think on that because it was just fun. I literally played it because it was about as tall as a human. Very cool. So I like to end with the las same three questions, like what is a resource that you'd recommend to another indie or aspiring game designer out there?

Laura: One resource I would definitely recommend to indie game designers is Facebook. If you find your local, your state's local or your town's local game design community, that's really where a lot of your feedback is going to come from. You're going to meet amazing people who can help you to develop your game, so using Facebook groups and doing that and then also some Facebook groups have mentorship programs where you could talk to people who've already designed games, and they can give you feedback. 

They're just really amazing as well, and I listen to a bunch of podcasts around game design like Board Game Design Lab and the Dice Tower Network and all of that. That has been incredibly helpful in just understanding what mechanics are, how to do them, who's done them, and just learning more about the industry.

What was the best money you ever spent as a game designer?

Patrick: Yeah, absolutely. I want to say I listen to podcasts for maybe 6-12 months before I started making a game, so that was super helpful for me. What about–? I'm a frugal person, and I try not to spend my money if I don't have to, what is something that was worth every single dollar that you invested in it?

Laura: I would say the thing that was worth the investment was definitely my witch costume. Again, it makes me stand out. It is my marketing, it is my promotion, and I don't have to spend money on a giant sign. It wasn't that expensive. 

It was just– I used an old bit of fabric I already had lying around, and I know how to sew, but I bought a witch hat for $20 bucks, and I made it fancy. Then I go to a lot of conventions, and it's just an investment you have to make because you want to see what all the companies are and what is out there. You have to make that investment into game conventions.

What does success in the board game world look like to you?

Patrick: I think you are the first person to recommend investing in a costume, and I love it. That is such a cool thing. I like it. Now, of course, I'm thinking about all the ways that I can dress up at a future convention, so you've probably—

In the next couple of weeks I'll probably figure out some way to dress up, and I'll probably figure out some way to spend $50-100 bucks on a costume. That's awesome. And then I want to ask you, one of my favorite questions is, what does success look like to you?

Laura: Success looks like, I want a published game. Maybe just self-published, but I want something where many people see it, and it's pretty widespread, and also, I can build a brand around it. I want people to be like “That is a Laura Erwin game. It's her aesthetic, and it's her vibe, and it's just her style of a game.” 

There's some people when you look at their games you know that they designed that game. I want people to be able to know that I designed it even before reading who designed the game.

Patrick: That makes a lot of sense to me. I've thought about this before, if you could be recognized for something would you want to be recognized for gameplay mechanics? Would you want to be recognized for a theme? Would you want to be recognized for art? Or, all of those?

Laura: I definitely would say more theme and art, because my mechanics are pretty basic right now, but they're great. They're fine-tuned, but I'm not the most analytically mechanic minded, and I think it's really hard for people who—

A lot of people who do game design are just amazing strategy thinkers. They are great at that, and I'm more of a theme-based person and more of an art-based person. There is also a space for that in the game design community.

Overrated/Underrated

Patrick: 100%. I think there is a perception that all gamers want to do the three-hour dry euro, I think that is a perception, and I know there are a lot of gamers like that. But there's a huge number of gamers that want to play anything but that, so they're definitely out there, but they are maybe a little bit more hidden. 

But it's cool to know that you want to focus on theme and art, awesome. I like to end with a game called Overrated/Underrated. Have you heard about it?

Laura: I have.

Patrick: OK, great. I'm going to give you a word or phrase, and you have to answer if you think it is overrated or underrated, so if I said– Let's see, what do I want to go with today? If I said, “Diet soda, you would be like, “Overrated because the flavor is not there.” Something like that. Got it?

Laura: Yeah.

Patrick: Great. All right, so I want to go with something super simple here to start out with. Transparent cubes versus wooden cubes. Because I think transparent cubes are like the step up from regular wooden cubes. So, transparent cubes. Are they overrated or underrated?

Laura: I would say maybe that they're underrated, solely because I work with a lot of people that are color blind and a color-coding game could be much easier to do stickers and engraving on transparent cubes that are plastic rather than wood engraving symbols onto it.

Patrick: Sure, OK. How about just Halloween as in the holiday, is it overrated or underrated?

Laura: Halloween is definitely underrated. It's only the second biggest holiday in America, and it needs to be the first.

Patrick: What is–? OK, the first has got to be Christmas?

Laura: Yeah.

Patrick: OK. Yes. I was like, “What is–? OK. Got it.” How about this, so The Game Crafter has this mint tin challenge going on. Mint tin games, overrated or underrated?

Laura: I've been seeing all the amazing stuff that's been coming up in mint tin games, so I feel like they're underrated. They're pretty amazing. They're so cute and small, but I feel like they're definitely the microgame trend.

Patrick: Yeah. Cool. And then lastly, The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina, which is the– For those of you who don't know, it's like a Sabrina: The Teenage Witch reboot on Netflix. Overrated or underrated?

Laura: I would say The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina– I definitely love the show, it's really fun, but I would say it's a little bit overrated because it's sloppy in its storytelling. But I do like it. Also, I don't like how it portrayed some witches. I heard a lot of negative feedback from my witch friends about how witches are portrayed in Sabrina. So I would say it's overrated.

Patrick: Interesting. I've heard similar feedback, because I think this is like, witches are related. Like, they do favors for the devil. It's like that mythology, which is not what witches mean to a lot of other people.

Laura: Yeah. It's definitely one aspect of being a witch. And even then, they do harm, and I remember just having this conversation with this girl, and she was like “No. You never do harm, and you can't. If you do harm, terrible things will happen to you.” So I'm like, “This isn't completely– It's not accurate to witch culture.”

Wrap Up

Patrick: Interesting. Good to hear that. Laura, thank you so much for being on the show.

Laura: Thank you so much for having me on the show.

Patrick: Where can people find you and your game online?

Laura: People can find me at Laura Erwin Design and Games on Facebook and Instagram, as well as LEDesignAndGames.com. My game Potions Please is going to be on the Game Crafter under, look up “Potions Please” or you can go to any of my sites, I'll have a link to it. It's always going to be for sale even after the crowd sale, but if you buy during the crowd sale, you're going to get a great discount.

Patrick: Yeah. The discounts are pretty– check out the– I didn't know how big the discounts on the crowd sales were until I was preparing for this show, and the discounts are pretty impressive. So, check that out. Listeners, if you like his podcast, please leave us a review on iTunes. 

If you leave a review, Laura said that she might be able to make a potion that makes you fall in love with the next human you see, which could be good or could be terrible. But you would now have that opportunity. I want to share, and I will be going to BGG Con and Tabletop Network, both of which I'll have links for in the show notes, November 20th and 24th. That's in Dallas. Tabletop network is for designers, and then BGG Con is for gamers. 

Then I will be going to the first-ever Protospiel Denver, which will be obviously here in Denver, March of 2020. I would love to play your game, so stop by– Figure out how to get to Denver because it's the coolest place on earth and shoot me a message on Facebook or Twitter, I'm @BFTrick on Twitter. 

Shoot me a message there, and I'd love to set up a time and play your game. Again, I will have a link in the show notes so you can visit the site at IndieBoardGameDesigners.com. You can follow me on Twitter, and I'm @BFTrick. Until next time.