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Patrick Rauland: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Indie Board Game Designers podcast, where I sit down with a different independent game designer every single week, and we talk about their experience in game design and the lessons they've learned along the way. My name is Patrick Rauland, and today I'll be talking with Cassie Elle who designed Wizard Shelf, an 18-card set collection game which is coming out via Concrete Canoe on their Kickstarter, which I will link to in the show notes. This episode should come out when that Kickstarter is live. Cassie is also a content creator and a board game reviewer, and she's also considering publishing other people's games, so she's also considering becoming a traditional publisher. Cassie, welcome to the show.
Cassie Elle: Thank you for having me on the show.
Patrick: So I'd like to start with a little game to introduce you to the audience, the lightning round. OK?
Cassie: Boy, OK.
Patrick: I know you live in Florida, so I need to know what is the best– and I know Florida has these. What is the best theme park in Florida?
Cassie: The best theme park in Florida. Universal, because Hogwarts is there.
Patrick: OK. Have you been to the new Hogwarts stuff?
Cassie: Definitely, not when it opened right away because that's just ridiculous, but yes.
Patrick: Very cool. What is the favorite game that you've reviewed?
Cassie: The reason this is one of my favorites is because it was one of the first games I reviewed and I was attracted to it, it's called Underlings of Underwing, and it's a Game by Alicia Volkman where you are collecting gems to hatch dragon eggs and turn them into dragons. It's just a very beautiful game. It was one of the first games that I was into when I started getting into indie games, and I reviewed it, and it was one of my favorites.
Patrick: Very cool, I'll have to check that out. Alicia Volkman does awesome illustrations, so I'm sure it looks really good. Then, I just realized, Cassie, because of the first question with Hogwarts, now I have to know what is your Harry Potter house?
Cassie: Raven Claw.
Patrick: Raven Claw, got it. That makes sense. Lastly, what is a game you play with someone every single time at a convention?
Cassie: OK. So I had a little bit of difficulty deciding a game for this because it's convention specific. I think it would be best for games that need larger groups of people, a larger amount of people. I went with Shadow Hunters because Shadow Hunters is one of the games where you have to figure out who is who, but you also get to be on teams. It's also co-op, competitive co-op, I don't know the best way to explain it, but that's a great game to play with four-plus players. Conventions are the easiest way for me to find four-plus players who are willing to play this game with me.
Patrick: Very cool, yeah. I'll have to look into it. I'm looking at it right now. I'd say, is semi co-op the right technical word?
Cassie: Yeah. It depends on how many players you have, how many people can be on a team. Some people might be the only member of their team, but teams are against each other. Yeah, I guess semi coop is a good way to put it.
How Did You Get Into Board Games and Board Game Design?
Patrick: So first real question, how do you get to board games and board game design?
Cassie: Star Trek is how I got into board games. It's because I was getting into Star Trek and I saw Wil Wheaton on Star Trek: The Next Generation. I was wondering, now he's all grown up, what is he up to? I found out he had a show called Tabletop on YouTube. I started watching tabletop, and I was like “Wow, these games look amazing. I want to check these out.” I've always been into board games. I was always into Clue and Monopoly and Life. So seeing all these other kinds of neat games out there, I had to check them out. There was International Tabletop Day.
I went to my local game store for International Tabletop Day, and I made some new friends that were like “Come sit down and play this game.” They introduced me to Ticket to Ride, which I got to see on tabletop. Seeing it in real life was a very exciting experience for someone who's getting into new games. Ticket to Ride was one of the– Or maybe it was my first modern game? Just went from there and I kept going back to the game store and playing more games with friends and yeah, that's how I got into it.
Patrick: That's very cool. Basically, a TV show and you liked an actor in a TV show, and you wanted to see what the actor is doing. I have seen his tabletop show I think years ago. I remember watching him play, maybe Small World, or something. But yeah, that was a great show. Then from that, you went to your board game store. There's a lot of pieces in that. I wonder if one of those things didn't happen, if Wil Wheaton loved board games but didn't love tabletop, maybe you never would have gotten in?
Cassie: Definitely. I think there's a lot of different things in my life that would be different if I hadn't gotten interested in gaming.
What About Board Game Design Specifically?
Patrick: Oh, wow. Then what about board game design, specifically?
Cassie: Board game design just developed from my interests in– so I like to have my hands get involved in a lot of different things. As you'll learn, I have my hands on a lot of different things in the game industry, but it's because I just like little pieces of each position. In reviewing, I like taking a game and breaking it down and figuring out what's fun, what's not, and then that led into I want to– now that I've learned how to break it down, I want to do something else with this information. What else can I do with this information? Maybe I can do the reverse, build something up which is design a game. So that's how I just decided to, I guess, follow my nose.
Patrick: Was it like a challenge? Like, “I wonder if I can do this?”
Cassie: No, it was more like, “I know I can do this, but I don't know what direction I want to take what I know.” The reason that I was able to design something is because I did it for a contest. I don't know if you can hear, I have a thunderstorm going on outside. The reason I was able to design a game is because there was a contest, and I was given constraints. With game design, I was having a really hard time coming up with an idea without constraints and so here comes a contest with constraints and that's exactly what I needed.
Patrick: Very cool. I love it. Just curious, because I know your game, The Wizard Shelf is like an 18 card game. Was that the 18 card game challenge on The Game Crafter?
Cassie: It wasn't the one on The Game Crafter, but it was an 18 card game contest, that was the constraint. It was for GenCant. There's Gen Con. And then there is an online community that celebrates those that cannot attend Gen Con called GentCant. So they had a contest for an 18 card game, and I was like “You know what? I'm going to do it. I'm going to build something around these constraints.” And I went for it.
How Did You Capture The Attention of Your Publisher?
Patrick: Very cool. Obviously, the publisher saw it. Why don't you tell us that story? Because you're not publishing it, Concrete Canoe– Who, by the way, is Dan Grech. I want to say he– I'll look up the episode number in a second, but he was on a previous episode. How did he find out about your game? Did you pitch it to him? Did he see it? What was the story there?
Cassie: When I made my video for my game, I shared it widely, because I wanted to get feedback from people, and I wanted publishers to see it as well. It wasn't my goal, necessarily, to get it signed. I just wanted to get it in the contest and see how well it did with feedback. It, being Wizard Shelf, my game. When I was sharing it around, I was already friends with Dan Grech just from around. He saw my video, and he reached out to me, and he's working on lines of 18 card games that have little hook boxes around them. He reached out to me and said, “Can I get a print and play and the rules?” and just wanted to check it out. He checked it out, and he said he liked it enough to send me a contract.
Patrick: That's very cool.
Cassie: Yeah. So it just happened from people seeing it. I think there's something to be said, not necessarily about who you know, but about being willing to let go of the fear of spreading yourself out there. If you hold back on your designs and you don't let anyone see them, then no one's going to see them. I think that's a big thing in how I got signed, is I shared it, and people saw it.
What About Social Media and Content Engagement?
Patrick: On the topic of sharing, I think I probably first met you on Twitter before anywhere else?
Cassie: I would say, yeah, I think that's right.
Patrick: Because you share a lot of stuff on Twitter, you also have a pretty big following. I mean that in a good way, that you share a lot of things but you also have a lot of engagements. People follow you because they like chatting with you, because you share so much and are very– I think, as vulnerable as people want to get on Twitter.
Cassie: Yeah. I've recently locked my Twitter account because I've just been a little– I don't know what the word– I guess I've just been feeling anxious. I have general anxiety, and I share that information about that on my Twitter. Lately, I've just been feeling anxious, and I don't know what it is. I've had lots of stuff going on in my life. I have new projects, and I'm just like “I'm going to just settle down for a bit.” So if anyone's trying to find me and you can't figure that out, I've been letting people follow me. I've been accepting all of the requests, but I like– I don't know, it's something about, like you said, how you can be so open to Twitter. I'm closing down how open I've been lately.
Patrick: I think there's a—“Cost” isn't the right word, but there is like you don't want to share everything on Twitter. I do think you have a ton of followers, and I assume they came to you because you shared so many cool things. I think there's probably the right balance for everyone of sharing the right amount of stuff.
Cassie: It's true.
Patrick: Yeah. So you probably can get your game ideas out there, but not share every single thing.
Cassie: You're right, and I'm probably not going to keep my account locked for that much longer. It's just as my anxiety goes up and down like I said, I have generalized anxiety. I see a therapist for it, and I take medication for it. It comes and goes, and when it comes, I put myself on a lockdown, I bury my head in a book, and then I watch a lot of Star Trek, and I put my Twitter on private.
Tell Me About A Wizard’s Shelf
Patrick: That sounds great. That sounds fun. Changing gears a little bit, tell me a little bit about your game, Wizard Shelf, sorry, is it– No, it's just Wizard Shelf, not A Wizard Shelf. Wizard Shelf. There we go. Where did the idea come from? Was there any design challenges you ran into? How did the game come to be?
Cassie: Yes. The restrictions were 18 cards, and so what I did was I looked at games that I have played, that I've enjoyed that were 18 card games. One of the ones I enjoyed was Circle the Wagons by Stephen Aramini. One of the things that his cards have are– that I've noticed in a lot of his 18 card games are quadrants. I was like “OK, and I'm going to build an 18 card game about quadrants.”
I didn't really know exactly what I wanted to do from there, but I really like magical-themed games and things that are about wizards and casting spells, and so I was like “OK, what can I do with 18 cards? Something with quadrants and something with magic?” I was sitting on those ideas for a little while before I came up with Wizard Shelf. I don't know, is it “A Wizard Shelf” or “Wizard Shelf”? I think it's “A Wizard Shelf” on the box. Is it terrible that I go back and forth between “A Wizard Shelf” and “Wizard Shelf.” I honestly don't care if the A is there or not. I think it matters for Board Game Geek and things like that.
Patrick: OK. For accuracy purposes, I just looked up the image, which theoretically could change before the Kickstarter, because we're recording this before the Kickstarter. The current box has “A Wizard Shelf.” Lookup for “Wizard Shelf” or “A Wizard Shelf.”
Cassie: It's going to show up either way because there's nothing else that's Wizard Shelf out there, I'm pretty sure. Also, there's just like some 18 card games, and there's not that many of those out there either. If someone's having a problem finding it, just let me know. I will help you. This won't be a problem.
What Design Challenges Did You Run Into?
Patrick: Was there any design challenge– Was there something– Did the design basically work on the first try? Obviously, there's refining and balancing. Did the game work on the first try, or were there things that had to be ironed out?
Cassie: So, no, it did not. The game I submitted to the GenCant contest is different, for sure than the one I ended up submitting. It was nice because I am friends with a couple of different designers and publishers, and I was able to send them copies, and they were able to give me feedback. One of the things that I received feedback on and I changed, is the game originally had almost all of the cards laid out on the table face down. I guess the cards are double-sided, but the shelf side face up. On the other side of the cards is a spell. Spell side face down. It was like a market, and it was too much. There was too many options, having all of these cards and all of these options.
That was one thing that I encountered is analysis paralysis. So I reduced the market down quite a bit to make decks of cards and then have only a few cards out from the deck at a time, to make the market. That was one example of something that I needed to change. Another thing that we've needed to change is figuring out– on the backside of the card, the spell– let me back up and explain. In the game, you are a wizard, and you are collecting shelves with items on them and to your player area. You are placing them in such a way that you want items that are the same type next to each other like you want all of your books and all of your wands to be on the shelf next to each other.
But you don't want the same color of things to be next to each other. You want all your books next to each other, but you don't want a blue book to be next to a blue wand to be next to a blue hat. But you want all of the hats near each other. It's like figuring out your correct placement. So you get points at the end of the game based off of how your groupings are, you're collecting sets of different things from the shelves. But you also get points by drafting the shelves for the other side of the card, which is a spell.
The spell, if you get certain items adjacent to each other, based off of the spells requirements, you get a special bonus that you earn points for. Maybe you get an extra couple of points for wands, or you get extra points for pairs of hat and books. There's those two ways to earn points. One of the difficult things that I was trying to figure out is the balance of how many items you need adjacent to each other and what items you need adjacent to each other, to be successful at casting spells. For a while, it was too difficult, and nobody wanted to do anything with spells, they just wanted to get items on their shelves, and that's all the points that were happening.
I wanted people to get points for spells, too. I wanted both point systems to be used, and only one point system was being used. So I had to make it easier for the other point system to be used and also to make the value of the other points system to increase. So it was a little bit of balancing, figuring out what items like I said “How many should be part of a spell? How many points certain parts of the spell should be worth.” Stuff like that.
Patrick: No. I think anything with points will need lots of tweaking, but it sounds like most of your game worked. There was a little bit of too much analysis paralysis, but it sounds like you basically simplified your game and it got a lot better.
Cassie: Yes, there was. It needed a little bit more as well. I felt like there was– It was like “You do 1 or you do 2, you do 1, or you do 2.” I needed to make it more entertaining as well. Like I said, there was a few tweaks, but like you said, the core was there. I just needed to polish it up around the edges.
How Did You Create the Artwork?
Patrick: Awesome. Then a very serious question about your game, Cassie, are you on the front cover?
Cassie: Yes, it's supposed to be me. The illustrator, what is her name? She's not on Twitter. She's not on Facebook. It's [Faron]. Gosh, what is [Faron's] last name? I'll link it to you, and you can put it in the show notes [Faron]. She was given a picture of me and was basically said to illustrate the wizard on the cover to be like me. So it is a little bit of me.
Patrick: That's awesome. I should have requested that for Fry Thief, but I did not. I'll have to do that for my next game. Somehow sneak me in as a little Easter egg.
Cassie: I think that would be a lot of fun. You should totally have yourself drawn into one of the cards.
Does Reviewing Games Help You with Game Design?
Patrick: I did do that for Fry Thief. I did add myself to one of the cards. We'll have to see if you can recognize that or something. Anyway, back to your games. One of the things I wanted to talk to you about, is you've reviewed– one of the things I think is cool is that you've reviewed a lot of games. Have you learned anything from reviewing all these games? Let me ask you the underlying question, the sub-question, the thing I'm getting at, does reviewing games make you a better game designer? Is there something you learned from reviewing games that helps you?
Cassie: Gosh, I don't know. Heavy question. There's also this crazy thunderstorm going on. I mentioned earlier I'm in Florida, and we're on the cusp of a hurricane coming so there's just crazy stuff going on outside right now and I keep getting distracted by it. Anyway, so things I've learned from reviewing that helped me with designing. I think it's being able to– One, I have been exposed to so much. I've been exposed to so many mechanics and so many ways of calculating points, so many ways of making a game, a solo game.
I've just been exposed to so many different games and themes and mechanics and components that I really feel like if I need to past a hump or I'm having a problem with– I'm actually working on another prototype at the moment, and there was something that I was– It's a co-operative game, but it just didn't have this urgency that I'm like “There's something missing. It needs an urgency.” I couldn't pinpoint it. I'm thinking about the different co-operative games I'm playing. I watch a couple of videos of people who've made prototypes that are co-operative. After getting exposed to so much, I'm like, “Let me try one of these different ideas from a couple of these other different games.”
One of them worked, and I playtested it with this new idea that I have found in another game. If I hadn't been exposed to these games and then be able to go back and look at these games and say “Hey, that was a co-operative game, that was fun. Let me see what it was about that game that I enjoyed.” I think I would be struggling a lot more with designing because I don't have a good design group here that I see regularly. I have a good playtest group, but they're not all designers. So finding people to ask regularly, or people that I can pick their brain about game-specific things like mechanics and fancy components or talking to people about “Can something be made? Can something be shipped from China?” Just having been exposed to all of this stuff, I think has given me a step up.
Patrick: Cassie, what's cool is the thing I just pulled out of there. The thing that I think is making a lot of sense to me is a lot of guests talk about, and I've been echoing the need for, a really good design group. Even if you have playtesters, that's different than designers, as you made that distinction. I can get lots of my friends to playtest my games, but they give me different feedback than a game designer would.
Cassie: Definitely. I've playtested with a designer, and they'll break it down and say, “This part was fun, but this part wasn't, and this part was repetitive, and this part wasn't.” That's not maybe the most specific example, but they'll say more than “It was fun or it wasn't.”
Patrick: Yeah. Then I wonder if you could almost solve your own problems by reviewing games. If you are in a very rural area, there's no big cities around you, and there's no game design groups around you, maybe then it might be a wise choice to become a board game reviewer. Just so you are constantly exposed to those new mechanisms because the group can't do it for you, you have to do it for yourself, that might be a good way of doing it. Cassie, that's cool.
Cassie: Yeah. It's not a bad idea. You don't have to do it for content's sake. You can do it for your own sake. Have a journal and play games and review them. What about the components, what about the mechanics, what about the scoring did you enjoy? And why didn't you enjoy it? How far ahead was somebody? Was that fun, how far ahead they were? Like you said, you can review, and it forces you to break it down.
What Appeals To You About Publishing?
Patrick: It forces you to break it down and think about it. Love it. Very cool. That's a great answer. Something else I wanted to chat to you about is, I know from our chats– We met at Origins for the first time, we met at Gen Con, and we've chatted online for a little bit. Also, you reviewed Fry Thief, so we've been chatting for a while. I know that you are thinking about publishing other people's games. I guess my question for you is, “Why go down that route?” Because I think a lot of people publish their own games, but not a lot of other people are like “I want to be a publisher and publish other people's games.” What is the desire there? What is the thing you're trying to do?
Cassie: I'll admit that not everybody can do everything, and I don't think that I make the best designer. I think I make an OK designer like I'm a good designer. I think I can make a game and it's a fun game. But I feel like my strength comes in my ability to manage and organize and orchestrate. I just got to experience that by helping publish a game, Matryoshka, from Letiman Games. I managed the publishing project and I have to say it was a really cool experience to be the one in charge of everything and to be the one who has to do all of the research, who's doing all of the direction and the guidance for the art direction or even the hiring of someone to do the art direction.
Being able to, like I said, my strengths come with my organizing and my managing, and I get to use my strengths, and it was really enjoyable. That's one of the things, I don't think I'm the strongest designer, but I think I make a stronger publisher. The other thing is I have encountered games that I want to play them over and over and over again, and I enjoy them, and I'm like “If I was a publisher, I would publish this right now.” Then I think, “Why don't I, though?” So it's been a little bit of both of those, of my desire to see my skills in the board game industry in a way that I think is most effective, and my desire to put really good games out there that I think deserve to be out in people's hands.
Patrick: Very cool. This is going to sound silly. I love that you love indie game designers, you love sharing the message of these little games. It's pretty cool.
Cassie: I do, and I didn't touch much on it, but I started a website many years, many years ago was probably like three or four years ago, a website called the Indie Game Report. All we focus on is indies, indie publishers, indie designers, indie games, and I've always been the one to enjoy those hidden gems. If I can find a hidden gem and I get to share that with the world, that is cool.
Patrick: I like that. Just for people who– is that the type of thing they could reach out and say “Hey, will you review my game for my Kickstarter?” Or is that not what they do?
Cassie: I'm not taking any requests right now for reviews, because I have a crazy long queue. I have a website, and you could go onto the website, submit a request and honestly, the only ones that I've said ‘no' to, were games that I wouldn't be able to get to the table to give it a playtest, like a party game. It's really hard for me to get a big group, party games to the table. I also wouldn't enjoy games that are like Cards Against Humanity-type games, those kinds of party games, and I say ‘no' to cause I'm not going to enjoy it. Save your money, don't send me the game. That's usually how I would do it is I would have an indie publisher designer send me an e-mail.
What's a Resource You'd Recommend?
Patrick: Very cool. I do want to move towards the end here, and one my favorite questions and I am excited to hear what you say here because you've such a wide breadth of experience, but what is a resource you'd recommend to another indie game designer?
Cassie: Oh, gosh. A resource that I would recommend. There is a book that Geoff Englestein just put out. That's like The Encyclopedia of Board Game Mechanisms. I don't have it, but I am going to get it because I have this little book– there is a game that came out– real quick, there was a game that came out last summer, spring called Mechanisms, and it's 52 cards, and each card is a different mechanism and is a party game.
I got two copies, one for the game to play with and one to use as a reference guide because it's a whole slew of mechanisms. But now there's this huge book out there of mechanisms, and it's great when you're in a bind, and you're like “What is it that I'm trying to figure out?” You could flip through it and think, “Oh, what if I tried this mechanism? What if I tried this mechanic?” So I would recommend that book, for sure.
What's the Best Money You've Spent?
Patrick: Oh, cool. Love it. I'm a frugal person, and I try not to spend money if I don't have to. What is something that was the best money you've spent in the game design world?
Cassie: I think it would be going to my first prototype event, it was Protospiel, or it's not a Protospiel, Proto Atlanta. Specific Proto Atlanta, not Protospiel. Go to Protospiels, go to Unpubs. That's what I would recommend doing is saving your money up. Don't spend it on stuff because you can make everything by hand with pieces of paper and scrap stuff you've got lying around. Use your coins out of your penny jar. You can't replace being around other designers and getting this kind of feedback and experience.
Patrick: Cool. I love that. Not a lot of people recommend prototyping events. So it's cool to hear that. Let me ask one clarifying question there. Why would you recommend a prototyping event as opposed to like a GenCon, or an Origins, or something like that?
Cassie: I guess it depends on what your goal is. If your goal is to design, you're going to have the focus be on designing, so you're going to get a lot of things done, I think, on your designing to-do list, that you're looking to get done at an event such as that. If you go to a GenCon, or an Origins, it's going to be very restricted in the time that you have to devote to what you're working on, I think. It's such a large event that you feel spread thin trying to do multiple things, and it can be distracting. So if you're focused on getting design work done and if you're focused on getting found by publishers, I think getting your game in front of a lot of people at these Unpubs and these Protospiels and the other ones that are just prototyping events, they're definitely worthwhile.
What Does Success Look Like?
Patrick: Very cool. Love it. Then my favorite question is, what does success look like to you in the board game world?
Cassie: That's such a hard question to answer. Success is if I'm happy with what I've done.
Patrick: OK. Give me a little more there.
Cassie: If I wake up in the morning and I think “Yeah, I did good work yesterday” and I'm happy with what I did, then I was successful. Whether I was trying to get published or not. If I woke up and I was happy that I wasn't published, if I woke up and I'm just happy that my design is good, then I think that's a success because I'm happy.
Patrick: Great. So it's about a feeling?
Cassie: It's definitely about feeling. If you're happy, like everybody says, it's about the journey, not the destination. So if you're enjoying your journey of designing and you're waking up every day, and you're like “Yeah, I did good work yesterday” then I think that's a success. If you're waking up, and you're like “Man, I really should have worked hard on my game yesterday.” Do that today, because then tomorrow when you wake up, you're going to feel happy.
Overrated / Underrated
Patrick: Love it. Very cool. I like to end with a game called Overrated/Underrated. You've heard about it, right?
Patrick: Great. So I'm going to give you a word or phrase, something like, oh boy, I got to get a new one today. You know what? I'm going to go with La-Z-Boys, are they overrated/underrated? You have to say La-Z-Boys are obviously underrated. They're so comfy. Something like that. Cool? Great. All right. So first one, GenCon the conference, overrated or underrated?
Cassie: Overrated. Way too many people.
Patrick: It's a lot of people.
Cassie: Too many.
Patrick: Got it. OK, noise-canceling headphones. Overrated or underrated?
Cassie: I'm going to guess underrated because I don't have any. People love them for some reason, so I'm going to say they're underrated.
Patrick: Oh, Cassie, you got to. Because I know you flew to GenCon. You got to get noise-canceling headphones for your next flight. They are fantastic.
Cassie: I'll look into it.
Patrick: Bundles of games on Kickstarter, and by that I mean, for example, like what Dan Grek is doing with Concrete Canoe games, like “Here's a Kickstarter for three games.” Stuff like that. Is that overrated or underrated?
Cassie: I think it depends on the game and the value. I think it can be underrated, but I think it can also be overrated. I think it just depends. You have to do your research on the value of what you're getting in the bundle.
Patrick: OK, cool. Got it. Very cool. Then, the last one. We're very quickly, approaching fall. And by Fall, I mean the season. Is that overrated or underrated rated?
Cassie: It's underrated. Fall is so great.
Patrick: What? All right. You got to give me a reason why here.
Cassie: OK, so everyone goes out for a Fall, but we could go out, even more, is what I'm thinking. I think everyone should dress up as leaves and we should all drink pumpkin spice every day. No, I'm just kidding, but I do love the fall. Anything fall makes me happy.
Patrick: Very cool. Cassie, thank you so much for being on the show.
Cassie: Thanks for having me. It was a lot of fun.
Patrick: Where can people find you and your games online?
Cassie: I know I mentioned earlier that my Twitter is private, but like I said, I probably won't keep it private for long. So you can find me on Twitter @FriedmanCassie. You can find me on my website, CassieElle.com. I'm also on Facebook, Cassie Elle.
Patrick: Very cool. Again listeners, her game Wizard Shelf– Sorry, A Wizard Shelf, will be on Kickstarter when this episode airs. I will make sure to include a link in the show notes. Listeners, if you like this podcast, please leave us a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you leave a review, Cassie said she would review your game tagline and give you some feedback on it, so that's pretty great. You can visit the site, IndieBoardGameDesigners.com, and you can follow me on Twitter, I am @BFTrick. Until next time everyone, happy designing. Bye-bye