Patrick Rauland: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Indie Board Game Designers podcast, where I sit down with a different independent game designer every single week, and we talk about their experience in game design and the lessons they've learned along the way. My name is Patrick Rauland, and today I'll be talking with Christopher Yoder, who designed Tangl, which should be on Kickstarter when this episode airs. It is a puzzle game with polynomial shapes. Christopher, welcome to the show.
Christopher Yoder: Hey Patrick. Thanks so much for having me on the show.
Patrick: I'd like to start with a lightning round. First question in this lightning round, if you had to be stuck in a maze, what is the worst maze that you can imagine that you would be stuck in?
Christopher: I don't know if you've ever read the book Maze Runner, I read it with my wife, and it's just petrifying. Basically, the maze is trying to kill you. It's a survivor situation where people are dropping off one after the other, and they are science subjects, so definitely worst nightmare there.
Patrick: I've only seen the movie. Is it similar to the movie, or is it nothing like it?
Christopher: I haven't seen the movie, so I couldn't answer that. But it was a riveting book, and I'll say that.
Patrick: All right. If game boxes couldn't be a cube shape or an oblong cube shape, if they had to be some other 3D shape, what would you pick?
Christopher: Great question. Let's say a pyramid, even though that would be incredibly inconvenient on my shelf.
Patrick: You'd have to have– Like, you could never stack games. You'd have to have a lot of shelves.
Christopher: If you had one box and then the other upside-down, you could make a whole grid of them. In fact, if you had [inaudible], you could make a pyramid of pyramid-shaped game boxes. That sounds cool.
Patrick: I hear what you're saying, but– I think I get it. Then my last question is, what is a game you play with someone every single time at a con?
Christopher: Lately, it's been KeyForge, it's just a blast. I enjoy it. Every time you play somebody, it's a completely different game because the decks are unique, and you never know what you're going to run into.
How did you get into board games and board game design?
Patrick: Very cool. All right, the first real question. How did you get into board games and board game design?
Christopher: Good question. I grew up in a family of six, and we went to a fairly conservative Mennonite church, where if the bishop was coming over, we would put a blanket over the television, and we didn't have– We almost never watched TV. But with six kids, there's always somebody to play a game with, so I remember playing games like Dutch Blitz, and there was a lot of Rook going on, and Monopoly and such. I was such a game nerd.
I would always be trying to rouse people up to play a game. I remember Rummikub, and I remember introducing a friend and a cousin to Mille Bornes and just telling him, “This is the greatest new game, you've got to try this out.” I was so oblivious to the whole other world of games that were out there. Looking back on it, I'm so upset that no one introduced me to Catan when it first came out, because I would have just been– It would have changed my childhood.
It did come out, I would have been like 10 years old when it came out, and I didn't find out about it for probably another five years, so a lot of missed opportunity there. Catan was probably the first one to introduce me to the wider world of games, and then in college, I think, “There's got to be other games like Catan.” Then I just did some internet searching and found Small World, and then that just opened the floodgates from there. I was just hooked.
Patrick: Yeah, I constantly wonder why no one introduced me to these awesome hobby board games earlier. Like, “Why? Who is irresponsible? Which one of my friends is irresponsible and didn't tell me about all these awesome board games?” Because there's so many good ones.
Christopher: I know, right?
Where did the idea for Tangl come from?
Patrick: OK. So, where did the idea for Tangl come from? Because it's this cool– to describe it a little bit more for the listeners, there's lots of polyomino shapes where they're like, Tetris-like shapes. You basically have to form them into either rectangles or certain patterns in your game. Where did it come from?
Christopher: The initial seed idea came when I was playing– I had just got done playing a game of Blokus Duo with a friend, and he had to check out, so I was stuck putting the pieces away. It was a travel set, so all I had was a plastic bag and the board and the pieces. To try to get everything to fit back together, I tried to put all the pieces on the board, and, with the Blokus pieces, it is quite a challenge.
It's like a little puzzle to try to get all the pieces onto the board, and as soon as I did I realized there was just something really satisfying– Like, the most satisfying moment in Blokus was when there was a place where I could put a piece, and it fit perfectly on all the sides. So I was thinking, “I want more of that. What if there were a game where you actually could play the perfect play, where that piece fits perfectly?” I also around that same time was playing Patchwork, and in Patchwork near the end you almost always fill up the whole square, but you almost always have 3-4-5 spaces where you can actually– Where you can't fit a piece.
And it's so frustrating, and you're always like “So close.” So I just had this idea of, “How could you create an experience where you were guaranteed to get that perfect square every time, but it's still a challenge?” Immediately I just had the idea of making a jigsaw puzzle but using polyomino pieces.
Patrick: Yes. That's pretty cool. So, your story about Blokus reminds me of– I have a game called Cathedral, I don't know if you've played it, but it's similar where there's all these little mini buildings, and they all go on a grid. But to fit– To put Cathedral back in the box, you have to put every single piece in such a way where every single space on the grid needs to be filled in a very specific way, or in several different ways. If you don't do it exactly, the box will not close, and it's so funny because you're frustrated, “Why can't I get the box closed? This one-piece won't fit.”
And then you finally get the last piece, and you put the box cover on, and you're like, “I am so smart. I'm amazing.” I think it's funny and I think it's cool that you took this– You basically took the frustrating part of putting the game back in its box and turned it into its own game, which I think is amazing.
Christopher: Thanks. Exactly. The funny thing was, initially, it wasn't even supposed to be a game. Any idea I ever have, my brain tries to turn it into a game, but this specific time it just seemed like the best solution was a jigsaw puzzle. I was trying to create a jigsaw puzzle, and so I went to work. I work at this cool place called Miller Metal Fabrication, where I get to play with– It's basically sheet metal origami, but I get paid to do it. I get to play with lasers and computer-controlled press breaks and robotic welders and all of this great technology. It's just a dream job for a board game designer.
So I go to work, and I was hoping to cut something on the laser, but there is this little store next to where I work that sells crafts and things. I went over there, and I was going to try to find a painting or something that I could cut into Tetris shapes, and what I ended up getting was a doormat. It took me forever. I pasted this polyomino puzzle that I got off the internet onto this doormat, and it took me hours to cut out all the pieces. I took it home and just dumped the box of pieces on the table, and immediately out of nowhere and without even saying anything, my wife and two of my kids sit down and start playing with the pieces, trying to put it together.
And my wife, she's usually very task-oriented, focused on getting dinner ready. She couldn't do anything. She was helpless. She couldn't get away until she had finished putting all the pieces together and could see the finished picture, so that was the first time I was like, “I might have something here.” There's more to tell about that, but–
How do you know when to follow inspiration?
Patrick: Here's my question. One of things I've learned being doing this podcast now is that people find inspiration from many places. For some of them, it's a component, some of them find inspiration from other games or combining multiple games together. Some people find it from movies or just themes, or I had a couple of designers who said a song inspired them, which I think is a cool thing. But in your case, it seems like you just had this idea and you just went with it. I think my question is, “When do you–? How do you know when to follow inspiration and make a game out of something?”
Christopher: In my experience, when I've made a game, it's like I haven't even been able to help myself. I've had an idea, and the idea sounds fun to me. Like, it's a game that I would want to play. Which is different than– In this case, that's not the case, because my favorite games are more like space 4X games. Complicated and crunchy, interactive combat, those types of games. This is the polar opposite of that, super simple and non-confrontational.
But once I had the idea, it just seemed so unique, and it intrigued me, so it kept me going. I guess it's one of two things that would make me follow the inspiration. One is just it sounds really fun to me, “I want to play a game like that. Why hasn't someone designed a game that's like this before?” I keep chiseling away at it and working at it, and then on the other hand, if it's an idea where I'm like, “If it's so simple that it sounds easy to make, then that removes a lot of the obstacles to pursuing an idea.”
It's like, “This might not be a game I would buy, but it's going to be easy to make, and all have to do is cut a picture up into shapes. I could do that today.” I think that's what ended up causing me to pursue this particular idea.
Patrick: To put it another way, the speed of implementation, like how easy it is to prototype and get it on the table and test it. Is that a factor?
Christopher: Absolutely. Because I've had game ideas in the past where it's a more complicated and involved game, you have to come up with a lot of technologies and cards and pictures and card effects. When you end up getting it onto a table, and you finally get a prototype together, you get it on a table and play it, and there's like five different things that need to change.
As a result, you have to completely redo all your work, reprint all your cards and edit everything. Then and then it starts to feel like work, and it's easy to abandon an idea at that point. Whereas with this game, the prototyping I could do so much faster, that it just saw more iterations.
As your hobbies continue to grow, how do you still make time to make games?
Patrick: Very cool. When you were in the pre-show, you mentioned that you got a new hobby, which is very cool. I want you tell us about that in a second, but how do you still make time to make games? Because I think naturally over the course of your life, people get hobbies, and you do them for 5-6 years or 5-15 years, whatever it is.
At some point, it falls off, and something else takes its place, and I sometimes think when you listen to other game designers, they're like “Hustle.” I wonder, how do you still make time to make games and put in all the work? It's a lot of work. How do you still make time to get a game across the finish line when you have a new hobby?
Christopher: Can I talk a little bit about that new hobby? Or do you want me to save that for a little later?
Patrick: No, yeah.
Christopher: My two brothers and I come from a family of six, but my two brothers and I, we went in together and got training to fly a powered paraglider. We just went out to a [inaudible] for a week, got the training, brought the equipment back, and I've gotten five solo flights under my belt. Three with an instructor in my ear, and two since I've been back. By far the riskiest thing I've ever done, scariest thing I've ever done. I'm not, by nature, a risk-taker. But I've always wanted to fly, and this is the quick route, maybe not the safest route. I think it is fairly safe, but it's just an unbelievable feeling.
For those of you who don't know what a power paraglider is, it's basically– In our case, you're sitting on a trike almost like a go-kart. You've got a motor and propeller on the back of that, and then there's 40 lines running up to this paraglider. It's a parachute in the shape of a wing. So you throttle up, and the wing lifts up behind you, make sure it's straight, and then you roll on the throttle all the way. Before you know it, you're in the air. And it's so easy, and you pull right to turn right, pull left to turn left, you throttle up to go up and throttle down to go down. It's just, obviously, it's a blast to fly, so I've been enjoying that. How do I balance that with games?
For Tangl, I was fortunate in that right around the time the game got signed for the first time in like four years working here at Miller Metal, and I was caught up on everything. We were in a lull, and it was a fluke that's long since changed by now. But I had a window of time where I would come to work, catch up on everything that I had on my to-do list, and then I was just on call and ready for something to come in. In the meantime, I could work on my game. So that was one way.
But I do got to say, in the last few weeks since getting this paramotor, and I haven't had as much time for gaming time. A lot of times I get up late– Or, I stay up late, I should say. I stay up late to do game design after the wife and kids have gone to sleep. If you're getting up at the crack of dawn to go fly your paramotor, you're not as likely to stay up late the night before.
Patrick: Yeah. I wonder–? So first of all, when are you making a game about paragliding? Because that sounds awesome, and I'm surprised you haven't already.
Christopher: It's definitely been bouncing around my mind, because I was like “There are no games about this, it's a unique theme.” I just haven't had that idea that crystallizes it all into one focus. But the gears are turning, absolutely. So, watch out.
How did publishing your first game change your process?
Patrick: Super cool. I want to see that. That sounds super fun, and I'd love to see what that looks like. I think it's cool, and I'm wondering if– How about this? Let's say, going back to “How do you have time?” I wonder if–? Can you still make big games, or almost are you restricted to only small games where you only have to make small changes, so you can finish it?
Like, do you think you would ever purposefully limit yourself? Now that you have this new hobby, would you ever purposely limit yourself to games that can be played in less than 30 minutes as an example of the complexity of the game you want?
Christopher: Honestly, for a while now, I've tried to set a time limit on how long a game that I design would take to play. I would never try to design a game that takes more than an hour. In fact, I've [inaudible] a few games where there might be a time limit. One game, one prototype that I put together, had a time limit of one hour. Because to me, that's a sweet spot where you have enough time for art to develop or where you get enough time for some longer-term strategy and planning to play out and interact with other player strategies.
But the game's not as likely to overstay its welcome, and also just for practical purposes I've noticed that I have some long games on the shelf that I absolutely love, but any game that takes over an hour to play I just noticed that they don't hit the table as often. The games that take an hour or less are the ones that get a lot of play time in our local group. So that's the timeframe I'm aiming for, thirty minutes to an hour.
What type of games do you like to design?
Patrick: Besides duration, what games do you like to design? Do you like to make adventure games, or roll & writes? Or, what interests you in the game design world?
Christopher: The roll & write fad appeals to me. I think part of the reason it's been so popular is that iteration cycle. That if you have a file in a computer, you can keep hitting print. Make a change, hit print, make a change, hit print. I'm kicking myself for not getting on that wave earlier, and I don't have one to my name yet. I have a prototype in the works, but I'm thinking that ship may have sailed because there's just been so many of those coming out. But I personally love roll & writes, I hope it's not a fad.
But having been in the game hobby for around 13-15 years and seeing some of the fads come and go, I have to wonder if it's not going to start tapering off here. Which would make me sad, but as far as games and the kind of games that I like to design, my holy grail would be a 4X space game. Expand, explore, exterminate, and exploit. So my holy grail would be to design one that takes an hour or less, and also, I would love to come up with one where there's just minimal downtime.
So many of the ones I play with my friends, you end up in a situation where you're like, “Come on, take your turn already.” Too much analysis paralysis. I'd love to make one either where each player– Where your turn is, you have one action per turn, take your action, and the next person goes. Or even, I've experimented with some real-time designs to have the maximum number of decisions and long-term strategic thinking in as short a time as possible.
Patrick: If you can get that 4X game to last an hour or less, let me know. I'd love to play that because that's tricky to do.
Christopher: Absolutely. I'll keep you posted.
What games inspire you?
Patrick: So, what games out there inspire you?
Patrick: No, I haven't played either one. I've heard of Glory to Rome many times, but I've never played it. Was it “Impulse?” I haven't heard of that one either.
Christopher: I think it's one of the most underrated games out there, and it's just such a blast, so engaging. It boils down the 4x genre to its fundamentals. I've had games play as quickly as a half-hour, sometimes I've had games probably go as long as two hours, but it never feels like a long game. I think what's really made it stick is we've hacked the game. Or, I should say, “I.” I've hacked the game, and something I don't normally do, usually, I play games exactly as the rules say out of the box.
But one of the criticisms Impulse has received, and I think probably is one of the reasons it's underrated, is if you're playing with the full complement of six players, the turns can take a long time. Because it's set up so that you have this whole sequence of phases and actions that you go through on your turn, and while you're doing that, everybody else at the table is just sitting there. I just had the idea, “What if–?” I think the idea came from Splendor. The thing I love about Splendor is you take one action, and it's the next person's turn, and it flows so quickly that by the time you've made your decision, it's your turn again.
So I looked at the game and it just suddenly dawned on me, I looked at Impulse, and suddenly it dawned on me that you could do the same thing with Impulse. If instead of me going through all the phases and then the next player goes, if I just did phase one and everybody did that phase, it could move around the table very quickly. And then I realized that a lot of the actions you can do simultaneously, everybody mines at the same time and everybody trades their cards in at the same time.
So, we tried it. I was expecting it to be a big flop because any time you mess with the rules, there's unintended consequences. But with minor tweaks, it took it from being, for me, a mediocre game to just being my favorite game of all time. I love it. I love being able to have the full force experience, each of those aspects in a compelling game. I just highly recommend trying it out that way. I don't know of anybody, but our personal group plays it that way, but it's a blast.
Patrick: I do think modifying other games is probably one of the best places to get started as a game designer.
Christopher: I am not sure.
Patrick: It's a cartoon. I will very quickly Google it, but I'm pretty sure it's called–
Christopher: I apologize, I haven't heard of it.
What one resource would you recommend to another indie game designer or an aspiring game designer?
Patrick: Yeah. It's The Venture Brothers, but he just– It's the exact same game. But he's basically stole– It's only his own personal copy, but he basically printed out new cards with Venture Brothers art and put on funny titles, and he loves it. I think that's a really good place to get started, even just a re-theme, or just what you did, is awesome.
OK, so one of the things I love asking people on the show is since you've been through the process and you know what it takes to get a game made, what is a resource that you recommend to another indie game designer?
Patrick: There we go.
Christopher: It's like Fail Fast or Fail Faster, it's like these PDF sheets that you can print out. It's a playtesting journal, there we go. That's what I'm looking for. I cannot think of a single resource better for an aspiring game designer than that resource. It just asks a lot of great questions, and it makes the design process more fun. I can't imagine designing a game without using it, and I'm going to use that for all my future designs. It just challenges you, and it raises the bar.
Also, probably even better that that is going to a board game prototype convention. The closest one to me is UnPub in Baltimore, they have the yearly convention, and just being in a room with that many people. It's like a catalyst for brainstorming and ideas, and also board gamers are naturally competitive, so it awakens that natural competitiveness in us against– Or, I should say “With” the other game designers.
You see what other game designers are doing and how they're challenging themselves, and how they're just maybe outperforming me in an area. “I don't want– I can do better than that.” It raises your game and gets you excited about being part of something that's bigger than yourself. You realize, “I'm not the only antisocial nerd who is spending time at home by himself working on designing a board game. There's other people like me.” You feel like you're part of this army, for lack of a better word, of game designers. So, that's been cool.
Patrick: Yeah. I did have Jay Cormier on in episode 56, which I will link to listeners in the show notes, but I did have Jay Cormier on, and he talked about playtesting and his Fail Faster journals. I did back it on Kickstarter, just because I wanted to see what t actually feels like. But I don't think they've arrived quite yet. I'm excited for the actual journals to arrive because I like the idea of starting a whole brand new design with a Fail Faster journal and see how many pages you go through, and stuff like that.
Patrick: So, yeah, we'll see.
Christopher: I'm looking forward to that. I do have the PDF sheets of his, so have you had a chance to see those?
Patrick: Yeah. I took a look at them, and they look really good. I just haven't gone through and printed it out and gone through the process because I have my own process right now. But as soon as I get the journal, I will use a journal on a new game design. And that's when I'll give it a try.
Christopher: So if I could go back and touch on the process that Tangl went through because we got to the point where I'd made a prototype of just a jigsaw puzzle. I couldn't resist the temptation at work to cut out a metal version of this, and I was trying to think of a way to apply artwork to the metal version. The first thing I did it was just cut out the pieces out of metal, and I hadn't gotten as far as figuring out how to get a photo on it.
But I just took the metal pieces to our local game group and just put them out on the table, and then just an idea that had been gelling in my head for actually the rules of a game came back to my mind, and I just– It was very spur of the moment. There was a few people sitting there, and I was like, “Let's try this.” So we started playing, and before I knew it, there was almost everybody at the game group, which would have been like 10-12 people we were gathered around, and we were playing quick 5-minute rounds of this game.
That was a complete shift in the game where it went from being a jigsaw puzzle to being a game. Then soon after that was UnPub, so it's just fortunate that the timing was just fortunate. I didn't have the other game that I really felt was ready for the convention, and I was behind. I wasn't registered at all, but I got lucky and was able to have a little five-hour slot at UnPub. Which UnPub is incredible for the design because you're brainstorming with other game designers, and you can play the game, and then you can tweak it and then play it again and then tweak the rules and play it again.
Christopher: I just went through this incredibly rapid iteration cycle at UnPub, and by the end of it, the game was in the state that it pretty much is now. The timing was incredible, because that was when David Abelson at Fisher Heaton Games sat down at the table on a recommendation from one of his other designers, and no other publisher had expressed interest. He got to see the game just as it was coalescing into the form it is now. He said he would like to publish the game.
Patrick: That's pretty great.
Christopher: It was the first time I'd ever had a publisher say they wanted to publish my game. It was pretty exciting.
What was the best money you ever spent as a game designer?
Patrick: That's awesome. OK, so you gave us a couple of recommendations, which I love. What about what is the best money you've ever spent as a game designer? Is there something that's worth every single dollar that you've spent?
Christopher: Yes. One of the prototypes that– And I should give credit where credit is due, David Abelson at Fisher Heaton Games has done a lot of work in developing Tangl and editing the rules and making suggestions and changes, and he's been phenomenal to work with in that regard. One of the prototypes that we went through, I got some fluorescent acrylic, and if I tried to cut it on one of the lasers at work, it would just melt it. So David Abelson suggested that I look around for local maker spaces, and I found one about an hour away.
I drove down there after work one day and brought my game file. They had this Chinese no-name brand laser in the maker space that was able to cut out these pieces out of acrylic. It looked like– The fluorescent acrylic, it looked like something out of Tron or like something out of some sci-fi movie as the laser was cutting it. It was just glowing. That got me thinking that we needed one of these at work, so I took some samples of some of the cut pieces to my boss and basically sold him and the vice president on purchasing one of these Chinese lasers.
Long story short, from the time we ordered it to the time we had it shipped over from China and on our floor was about two months. My boss cut a hole in the wall to get this thing in the building. That was pretty crazy, but it's just an incredible piece of machinery. You can cut out cardboard, and acrylic, and paper, and cloth, and leather. So many different things and I've had it for maybe two weeks now, and I haven't had a lot of time to play with it, but I'm just so excited to use it for game design.
Because I'll be able to just cut out components so quickly, and it's not that expensive, especially with what they can do. So moving forward, I'm planning to do all my game designs and all my prototypes on this laser, and I'll be able to cut something out and have an idea and draw it up and cut it out in a minutes. That iteration cycle is going to be a lot faster.
Patrick: So, the best money you've spent was your boss's money?
Christopher: Exactly. Isn't that beautiful?
Patrick: I don't normally– I like it. I normally ask people for their money, but it's a good answer. It's pretty funny.
Christopher: I figured out it was like getting $50 for Christmas for the next one hundred years, or something like that. It was great.
What does success in the board game world look like to you?
Patrick: I like to end with, what does success look like in the boardgame world to you?
Christopher: Yeah. I think the main thing is just seeing people enjoy your game. When I was at the UnPub convention, there was a couple that brought their son, and I think he was on the autism spectrum. One of the most joyful human beings I've ever met.
The parents and me, we finished first and then everybody was waiting on him to finish his puzzle. So we just waited and watched, and he was trying to get all his pieces, all 10 of his pieces to fit together. When he finally did it, he just broke out in the most beautiful grin I've ever seen.
That one moment was worth all the time I've invested in Tangl. I see moments like that as true success for a game designer, to see and to bring joy, to bring pure joy to someone's life, and to see that on their face. To me, that feels like success.
Patrick: Love it. I like to end with a game called Overrated/Underrated. Have you heard about it?
Christopher: I have not. Bring it on.
Patrick: So basically, I'm going to give you a word or phrase, like “Diet soda,” and you're going to say if it's overrated or underrated. So “Diet soda” would be underrated because it's nice to drink more sugar without adding the weight on. Just underrated or overrated, and a one or two-sentence reason why. Cool?
Christopher: OK. Sounds good.
Patrick: I'm going to go with app-assisted board games. Are they overrated or underrated?
Christopher: Definitely, underrated. Why would you not want to? Why would you not want to use all the tools available to make a game more fun?
Patrick: I like it. What about Halloween candy, since we're coming up on Halloween?
Christopher: So overrated. I've never eaten a piece of candy corn that I've enjoyed, and I have eaten a lot of candy.
Patrick: I hear you. How about flicking games, overrated or underrated?
Christopher: So, underrated. I am crazy about flicking games. I've designed one, and I've finally tracked down a copy of Ascending Empires a while back, a 4X flicking game combining two of my favorite board games genres, and what a blast bringing them on.
Patrick: Great. And lastly, again, Halloween theme, I'm stuck on it right now. Witches in general, and be clear, I'm going with the Halloween witch, with the hat and the broom. Overrated or underrated?
Christopher: Definitely overrated. I'm not a big fan of horror movies and creepy things in general, and they give me the willies. That's all I have to say about that.
Patrick: Christopher, thank you so much for being on the show.
Christopher: Thank you so much, Patrick. It's been a blast.
Patrick: Where can people find you and your games online?
Christopher: Definitely check out the Fisher Heaton Games website and link in the show notes, and I actually– Maybe this is some of my Mennonite background. I'm not very present in social media, so I don't have an Instagram account. You can look up Christopher Yoder on Facebook, and you might see a few things there.
Patrick: Great. That's cool. Listeners, if you like this podcast, please leave us a review on iTunes. If you leave a review, Christopher said he'd help you fit a game back into a box at a convention, since he's got all that experience. Then I just wanted to share a couple of things, and I'm currently going to– I'm going to BGG Con in November, as well as Tabletop Network.
I also wanted to mention that my game Mintsugi, by the time this episode airs, will be entered into The Game Crafter mint tin contest. So, check it out there and give me some feedback. Maybe it looks cool, maybe it looks dumb, but I'd like to hear from you. You can visit the site at IndieBoardGameDesigners.com, you can follow me on Twitter, I'm @BFTrick. Until next time, everyone. Happy designing, bye-bye.