Episode #9 - Dan Letzring

#10 – Dan Letzring

Patrick Rauland: Hello everyone, and welcome to the Indie Board Game Designer's Podcast. Today we're going to be talking with Dan Letzring, who's both a publisher and a designer. Some of the games he's designed are Groves, alongside Steve Aramini, and Dino Dude Ranch, and as a publisher he just lined up The Neverland Rescue, which was on Kickstarter. Dan, welcome to the show.

Dan Letzring: Hey, thank you so much for having me, Patrick. How are you doing tonight?

Patrick Rauland: I'm doing good, but I've just had a lot of good news today and a lot of bad news today. Overall I'm doing good.

Dan Letzring: At least you got good with the bad right, so that's pretty good.

Patrick Rauland: Yes, it is way better than just bad.

Dan Letzring: Just bad, yeah. Hopefully tomorrow's all good.

Patrick Rauland: Thank you, I hope so. Actually this'll air after I go to it, but I'm going to the Tabletop Network this weekend, which is a little design conference in Utah, and I'm super excited about it.

Dan Letzring: That's excellent. Great, well I hope you have a great time there.

Patrick Rauland: Thank you. Hopefully I sound smarter in future podcasts.

Dan Letzring: I'm sure you'll be great.

How Did You Get Into Board Games?

Patrick Rauland: Dan, how did you get into board games and board game design?

Dan Letzring: I started on board games probably like everyone else. I had a few friends who were really into board games, so they would always talk about it. I had some coworkers who always kind of talked about Settlers of Catan, and I had two different groups who played it separately and they were always talking about it, and I was like, what are these people talking about. So I had one of them introduce me to it, and shorty after that different people introduced me to Carcassonne, Ticket to Ride, and Dominion, all within like a month. I played all these games with different groups of people. Really once you play all those essentials you either love it or you hate it, and I loved it, and we just got into board games shortly after that.

Patrick Rauland: I love that you listed a ton of those intro games, and I just had to ask, which one of those intro games, if you could introduce someone with one of those intro games, which one would you pick?

Dan Letzring: Actually right now I use Splendor a lot, because I think it's really intuitive, and it's slick in that the progression of building that engine, and when you get to the point of just taking cards for free, it has a very rewarding experience. Just being able to all of a sudden realize what you've built and the cards you can start grabbing. It's so simple and intuitive with it, but the fulfillment you get from it, I find a lot of people really have been loving it when they're not really into board games. I've been using Splendor probably more than anything to try and introduce new people to games.

Patrick Rauland: I love it. Splendor's great. I think I overplayed Splendor. I think when it first came out a friend of mine got it for me, and I think I played it probably 15 times in a couple months, and that was enough. You know what I mean? I felt like all right, I got the gist of the game.

Dan Letzring: Yeah. I don't play it as often any more either, but my wife loves it for two-player. She and I will play it a lot if we just have a quick night, that we're exhausted and we just want to play something, and we don't want to learn something new or spend the time playing games all night. We'll just grab Splendor to play quickly, or like I said, if I'm introducing new people.

What Do You Like About Publishing Board Games?

Patrick Rauland: Great. You have a background in designing games, and it seems like now you're moving into publishing. What is it about publishing that you enjoy?

Dan Letzring: First I like just running my own business and having my own company. I have been wanting to do that for a very long time, and this has just been such a blast to do. I love running Kickstarter campaigns, and the community building involved with that, and the social media involved with having a social media company. You can do that as a designer too, but I love all the aspects that it takes to have my own company. I also love taking a design and bringing it to a publishable game. I love developing it to be a really final and completely game, I love getting artwork and seeing all of that come together and make a final product. I really just love every step of the process of taking a game from a designer, making it something amazing, and helping those designers get their games out there. It's really just been a natural kind of transition for me to do that.

Patrick Rauland: I really like that. I was just talking with someone earlier about being a game creator, and it sounds like you're sort of embracing the whole process. One thing about the process for me that stands out is … I feel like I've designed a game, and it's not published it yet, but I've designed it and I'm really happy with it, and there's a really fun core, but I feel like I'm going through all this pain of dealing with manufacturers. How d you get over that hump? Because it seems like you really enjoy the whole process, and I'm not enjoying the whole process.

Dan Letzring: I think that's the difference. Like I tell people all the time, some people make a game and they're like, “I've got my game, I'm going to publish it or I'm going to put it on Kickstarter.” I'm like whoa, there's a lot that goes into publishing, more than just putting your game on Kickstarter, and for some people it's just not the right step. That's okay, because there are tons of … I think with Kickstarter and the board game boom, there are so many indie publishers too, so it's not just like there are five big companies and they have thousands of submissions. There are small companies too who will help you get there.

Dan Letzring: If you're designing games and that's where you like ending the process, is once you've finished your design, find publishers, or reach out to indie publishers. Go to Protospiels or all sorts of events that you can show off your designs to publishers, and have someone else publish it. For me, I like doing those things. Like you said, I like building the quotes and making relationships with the manufacturers, and handling all the fulfillment and the freighting and all of it. It is a nightmare and it can stress you out big time, but I enjoy doing it. If you don't though, it's horrible, and you don't want to make yourself miserable doing it, so just stop at the points you love and try and find someone you can work with to help do the rest.

How Did You Get Into Self Publishing?

Patrick Rauland: Love it. I think my question … You've already done this a few times now, so it's pretty obvious that you like doing it, but how did you decide for your first game that you wanted to do it yourself?

Dan Letzring: Really my first-first game was a small card game about going to grad school, and I knew it was the kind of thing that no one would want to really publish. It was kind of my thing, like I wanted this grad school themed game I made, and I knew I wanted to transition into having my own company, so basically I just kind of knew I was just going to do it myself, and so I did.

Patrick Rauland: Love it. I kind of want to shift gears into your new game, which is The Neverland Rescue. It's, what is the word I'm looking for here, it's … What is it where two people have very different roles.

Dan Letzring: Asymmetrical.

Patrick Rauland: Thank you.

Dan Letzring: Yes.

Patrick Rauland: I had the word written down somewhere and now I can't find it on the page. It's an asymmetrical game.

Dan Letzring: Yes.

Why Design an Asymmetrical Game?

Patrick Rauland: Why did you look into designing a game that's asymmetrical, as opposed to, I think in my brain it's easier to design a symmetrical game.

Dan Letzring: The game was designed by Scott Almes first, so it wasn't designed by me. The whole conversation started with, we had a theme idea in mind, which wasn't the final theme. He pitched me a game he had that was this two-player asymmetrical game, and I really liked it because we really tailored it so it was two different game experiences in a game depending on which role you were playing, which I thought was pretty exciting. Because you just had this different game feel. You play as, say, Peter Pan five, ten times through, and then you're like okay, I don't really want to play as Pan any more. You switch to Hook, it's like a whole new game you've just acquired without even having to buy a whole new game. I really like that about it, and I love two-player only games, and as I said, my wife and I play a lot of games at night together sometimes. It just really was something I wanted to move forward. There are a lot of two-player games, but I'd love more of them, and I wanted something that really was a purely two-player quick asymmetrical game. So we moved forward with it, and we fell in love with it pretty quickly.

Is It Hard to Balance an Asymmetrical Game?

Patrick Rauland: I really like that, and I think I have to agree, I'm sort of just playing with a lot of ideas right now, and I am kind of liking the idea of a three-v-one game, just because basically everyone is against the bad guy. I think the asymmetrical nature of that would mean it feels like two completely different games. Which I think is just a really cool way to … I'm sure it's really hard to balance. Was it hard to balance? That's an assumption I have.

Dan Letzring: It was and it wasn't. Where it's two players it's easy to get iterations played, and it's only a half hour roughly to play, especially once you know the game. When you're doing these kind of play testing as well, sometimes you don't play through easily. In a three hour chunk at night with two people, you can hammer through a lot of changes quickly and see what works and what doesn't. What we had to do was play test a lot and kind of get win ratios, how it was balancing out, like how often was Pan winning, how hard was it for Hook, what could we change to balance that out? That might be slight changes that didn't really come to us in the beginning of the game. We made those changes.

Dan Letzring: It started with, Hook won far less than Pan. He has [inaudible 00:09:10] and it's harder. It was about 60-40, where it was Pan to Hook, Pan winning 60% of the time. The cards get placed out at the beginning of each round, and it used to go Hook would pick where they go, then Hook, then Pan, then Hook, then Pan. We realized to streamline it, and to give Hook more advantage with baiting Pan and setting the stage, Hook should just do it every time. That simple change just kind of gave him a little more leverage in how he played his game, and more advantage in how he could win to kind of even it out more. It kind of actually made it a little more asymmetrical in that there was a very different feel between Hook and Pan. It actually worked on all fronts for us when we made that small change, but it really just came from play testing a lot and kind of just thinking about it over and over again.

Patrick Rauland: I love it. My question is, what is “play testing a lot”? You said 60-40. Did you play 100 games? Did you play 15 games?

Dan Letzring: I don't really know the number, because like I said, in one night we could play four or five times through and then we'd just do that every other day or so, you know what I mean, for a while. Also where it wasn't just my game. Scott had a version too, and we would both be play testing over a couple weeks. Then we'd touch base to see where we were, what kind of notes we had from it, and where the win ratios were. It wasn't just who's wing, it was how many rounds did it take to get there, how close was the opponent to winning. It was like, Pan won 60% of the time; in these five games Pan won in the 5th round, Hook had guessed three of Pan's hidden locations out of five. It was kind of stats on that, as to how close was the game, how far into the game was it, and what did we need to do to keep it a decent length and a decent win. When Pan wins we want Hook to be close to winning. We don't want him guessing one or two out of five. There was a lot of that. You lose count after a while, but it was a lot. I don't know.

Patrick Rauland: Was it more than 100 games, or was it closer to 1,000 games?

Dan Letzring: No, it was probably like 100 or so. This was a game prior that Scott had already made as well, so we made a lot of changes, but it was a game that he had made. It was published with a quick small print run, it wasn't reprinted, he retained the rights back to it, and then we made it more in-depth and we added more things going on with it. It was something he had actually worked on for a long time anyway, so it actually had a really good core before we even got it, if that makes sense.

What Does Your Design Process Look Like?

Patrick Rauland: Got it, yeah. Let's go back to some of your earlier, maybe some of the games that you designed. What does your design process look like, from idea up to and let's say all the way through development?

Dan Letzring: I've actually had varied designs. I try to think, theme or mechanics first comes up a lot. I think about have of mine have been theme first and half of mine have been mechanics first. I can't really say I choose one over the other, but what I do end up doing is, once I have a theme and I have a set level of gameplay, I use the two to kind of intertwine. Something like my family game Dino Dude Ranch started as a farming game, and it was kind of money-based, but then as we changed the theme into dinosaurs we changed the resources to meat, leaves, and fish based on what the dinosaurs eat, and that kind of altered gameplay a little bit in that there were three resources instead of two. We kind of interwove the theme and the mechanics until we had a working product. Usually I start with one, I build on that, make a game, and then kind of feed the two into each other to make it work.

Patrick Rauland: I totally do that. I still don't know whether it's better to start with a theme or a mechanic, but I definitely rely on the theme when I'm making changes, you know what I mean.

Dan Letzring: Yes.

Patrick Rauland: It's like, how can we solve this problem? Oh, in real life we would do this.

Dan Letzring: Yeah, I agree. I think whatever inspires you is the right answer. It might be like, when we started with Groves, for me it was, I really wanted a worker placement game. I love worker placements, and so the mechanics drove that one. Like Ph.D the game was theme, because I wanted a grad school game, but something like Mint Julep, that Button Shy published of mine, that started as, I wanted to make a really interesting 18-card game with multiple use cards and abilities on them. That was mechanics first, but what inspired me was, when I sat down I was like, “This is the type of game I'm going to make.” And I just sat down and went with it. Sometimes you're like, “I really want to make a game about space ships.” If that's what inspires you, great, but if you're like, “I love pickup and deliver,” then go with that. Whatever you're excited about, I think, is really the right answer.

Are You Looking into Any Themes or Mechanics For a Future Game?

Patrick Rauland: I love it. Are there any things that are especially alive for you, either a theme or a mechanic that you're looking into and you want to put into your next game?

Dan Letzring: I don't have anything really burning like that. I've wanted kind of a more social deduction game, kind of like a Werewolf that doesn't have elimination. Something almost like Two Rooms and a Boom, where some people can win and some people don't, but it varies. Something like that has always been kind of exciting to me, but really the big thing was, I wanted a worker placement game. We did that with Groves, and there was bag building, which is also a super exciting game for me. I love games with tons of dice too, building dice pools. That might be something I want to explore at some point, but really with Groves, that scratched a big itch of mine, that I'm not really burning for anything in particular yet.

Patrick Rauland: Yeah. I have to say, I love having buckets of dice. I also play, do you know Warhammer, it's a tabletop game?

Dan Letzring: Yeah, I don't play it but I know of it, of course.

Patrick Rauland: It's a tabletop game, there's miniatures, and one of the armies I play is Orks, and when a full squad of 30 Orks charge it's 120 dice. There is this magical feeling of rolling 120 dice all at once.

Dan Letzring: That's amazing. I like this.

Patrick Rauland: There's so many dice, I think people build strategies like, okay I have 100 dice, all the dice that fit in this cup is 100, so you don't have to count them out every time. It's a fun thing, so I love that idea. If you ever want to … We'll have to brainstorm some 100-dice games after this.

Dan Letzring: Definitely. I am onboard for that. I am 100% onboard for that.

Patrick Rauland: I think the game will be really expensive, but I think it'll be really fun.

Dan Letzring: Definitely, I love it already.

Patrick Rauland: Cool. All right, love that. I'm distracted by 100 dice. So you've done a whole different … It seems like you do a wide range of games. Do you think you'll ever go back to five years from now, or a year from now you'll go, “Hm, I want to do another micro game,” or, “I want to do another worker placement game,” or do you think you're just going to keep trying to spread out and try more varied concepts?

Dan Letzring: I like varied concepts, in that a lot of times it's really nice when I go somewhere and someone comes to my table of games, and people have different tastes, and if you have something that appeals to someone, no matter who it is, that's very enticing for me, to have games that, basically a broad range. Again, yeah, it's really whatever gets me excited. There's already another Button Shy contest coming up for the GenCant, and I'm like oh, maybe we'll enter this. Because it's just, things come up that get exciting, and you might just make something just for the fun of it that you really … I don't know, wherever inspiration strikes, it's kind of funny how it works. Sometimes it just pops in and you want to work on it.

What Games Do You Like That Are Underappreciated?

Patrick Rauland: Love it! Are there any underappreciated games that you just think an aspiring game designer should try out?

Dan Letzring: Underappreciated, let me think about … For underappreciated, what we were just talking, one of my favorite games that … I don't think a lot of people love it, but I love Kings Forge. Have you played Kings Forge?

Patrick Rauland: I don't think I have.

Dan Letzring: I definitely feel like there are some things in that game that need work, and I think they're working on expansions that do help with it, but you're building dice pols. There are two phases to the round. One, you use your dice to buy more dice, or you craft items with the dice you have remaining. You can't use the ones you buy dice with to craft, so there's balance of how much dice to I spend now, because then I can't role them later. Because when crafting you have criteria to meet, and you only need three black dice rolling a five-five-six to craft the item, so it's better to roll 10 black dice instead of five black dice. You don't want to spend them all to increase your odds.

Dan Letzring: I just love it, because it's that feeling, like you said, of, if you don't spend them all you have this handful of 15 dice at times, and you roll them … There are ways to manipulate your dice and add modifiers to them, so it has some of that mitigation going on. I love anything where you're building pools of things, whether it's bags of chits or dice, and I love rolling lots of dice, so for me that game, I don't know, I just enjoy it. It's a fun guilty pleasure of mine, and I think that it's a lot of fun. My wife and I play that one a lot too.

What's the Best Money You've Spent?

Patrick Rauland: Love it. What is some of the best money that you've ever spent as a game designer?

Dan Letzring: The best money I ever spent as a game designer, I would say, is definitely on probably more games. Because really, learning how things work and playing things … I mean you're working on designing a game and you're like, the scoring on this needs to be fixed, and then you're like, wait a second, the scoring in this game, the style they use here, would be perfect. I think just having experience with different methods of gameplay and different actions that can happen in a game and different types of scoring, they're great for either refining a design you have or inspiring a new design. Playing new games, and just seeing fun things that are out there so that they can spark something inside you that is a really fun game that you make.

Patrick Rauland: And of course they should obviously buy your games, because then they could have more experience with the type of stuff you do.

Dan Letzring: Naturally, exactly.

What Resources Do You Recommend?

Patrick Rauland: Cool. Let's say excluding games, what resource would you point people towards, podcasts, books, blogs, what sort of information is out there that you think maybe not a lot of aspiring board game designers know about?

Dan Letzring: There are so many. There are a lot of podcasts. Breaking Into Board Games is out there with Ian Zang and Tony Miller is out there, and there's the Board Game Designer's Forum, which is a set of forums for aspiring game designers. When I start out, I don't go in there any more, and it's mostly because using it on my phone is terrible, but The Game Crafter, that's where I do a lot of my prototypes from, they have a chatroom, and that's kind of where I started with all of it. There's a great community there, and they're great for answering questions, and I used to be one of those people who it was great for answering questions, but like I said, I don't go in there any more. There and even just Twitter, there are so many people who are so accessible, and if you go there you'll find all the podcasts and the forums. There's so many places that you can find.

Dan Letzring: Then if you're looking to get into Kickstarter and crowdfunding, there are great blogs by Jamey Stegmaier and James … I always forget how to pronounce his name, but from Minion Games. Their blogs are fantastic for getting into crowdfunding. The resources are literally endless, and so coming online and finding these people is … Like I said, social media will point you to all of these things. Yes, those are a few of them.

Patrick Rauland: Those are all great, and I recognize most of them, so they sound great, but what is the Board Game Designer's forum? Where is that?

Dan Letzring: Let's see. Board Games …

Patrick Rauland: Okay.

Dan Letzring: No, I'm searching it right now to get the exact link for it. It's BGDF.com

Patrick Rauland: Okay, great.

Dan Letzring: Yeah, it's great. It's a set of forums that, they have announcements and press releases, a place to just hang out and talk, feedback, game design contests, there are all sorts of … They'll link contests there. It's a great resource, and so I would highly recommend it. It's www.BGDF.com/Forum.

How Many Games Do You Work on at any Given Time?

Patrick Rauland: Love it. So the Neverland Rescue, it's coming to wraps as we're recording, but it'll be done by the time this is posted. I guess that makes me think, are you already working on your next games? And maybe how many games do you have on the back burner at any one time?

Dan Letzring: We have a lot going on right now. We have, let me think … I have one game I'm working on that's kind of in the middle of development, and it's going to be a huge game. The concept of it was based off of Final Fantasy Tactics, the video game. We really focus on the job class advancements. That's the main goal of the game. It's a series of boss encounters basically, is what it is. I'd say we're about halfway through. We have about four boss encounters really well done, but we want about 12 to 15 at least. It's pretty early on in the development of it, but we're working hard on that. I have one game I'm working on publishing with another small publisher that we haven't really announced yet, but we're pretty much in the heat of development, and it's probably going to be on Kickstarter before the end of the year.

Patrick Rauland: Can I pause you for a second?

Dan Letzring: Yeah.

Patrick Rauland: The Final Fantasy Tactics game, you said it's going to be huge. Like there's a lot of components, or it's going to be massively popular?

Dan Letzring: Hopefully both, but no, a lot of components. We have, it's like a thousand cards I think.

Patrick Rauland: Whoa!

Dan Letzring: Because we want a lot of different options for job classes, and it's like building a deck, so if you go this route you get these cards added to your deck, if you go that route … So every way you go there are a lot of different cards involved, so we need all the options open to everyone, so that's just a lot of cards. It's going to be big, but it'll be worth it, and we're going to probably do-

Patrick Rauland: Is it like Legacy?

Dan Letzring: No. You can reset it and go back. We're going to have deck building in that you have a set deck, but you're going to have a box you could store it in, so you could pause it. We want the encounters to be shorter so you could do three or four in a night, like 45 minutes maybe. The first intro one is about half an hour, and then ones after that are about 40, 45 minutes. Then you're just building a deck, and then at the end of it you can redo the decks. We're going to actually have different ways you can branch out for the boss encounters, so even if you play through it a second time it wouldn't be the same boss encounters over and over again. Then depending on which route you go you're going to have obviously different cards in your deck and different ways you play it.

Patrick Rauland: So while it's not Legacy, it's definitely a campaign type of game.

Dan Letzring: Yeah. That's why I say it's big, because it's just a huge endeavor. We have that, there's a smaller game that we're co-publishing with someone else that we haven't announced yet so I'm not going to say too much about it, and then I have another project that's kind of related to board games but it's not a board game. That one we're starting to move forward with heavily now. I have three or four projects that we're steadily moving forward with, which is a lot at times, but that's what we want to do, is we want to put out … We want to grow my company and put more fun things out there.

How Many Projects Should an Aspiring Designer Work On?

Patrick Rauland: Totally. As someone who's new to this world, as I am, should I have four projects, or should I be focused on one?

Dan Letzring: For me, I always have a couple things going until I find the one that clicks. Especially as a publisher, once I know what game I'm moving forward with next, usually that's all I focus on. I can't really be sidetracked with other things. If I'm developing something I need to develop it, coordinate art for it, think about designing layout that we're going to talk to for the graphic designer. Once I know for sure what's next and what's clicking, I pretty much scrap everything else and put them aside into folds, and leave myself notes as to where I was with them, and I just stop worrying about other things. The reason I'm able to do this is, a lot of the projects I'm doing right are with other people as well, so we're kind of tag teaming them, so I can kind of parse myself out a little differently with it. I think, usually with the design especially, I have three or four things going until I'm like, “Ha, this is it,” and then I just put everything else aside till the one I'm working on is fully fledged.

Patrick Rauland: I really like that, because I think I've sort of had that, of “This is the game I'm working on,” and while I have other ideas, they don't go past much more than a drawing in a notebook, and that's kind of where they stop.

Dan Letzring: Yeah, and sometimes if you only focus on one thing, you get stuck with it or you can't move forward with it, but you're like, “I'm going to get through this.” But if you have three things going and you kind of tinker with each, all of a sudden one of them will click and you're like, “Okay, I need to drop everything else,” and you just run with that one.

What Does Success Look Like For You?

Patrick Rauland: Got it. Love it! I seems like you've had a lot of success already with published games. What does success look like in the board game world to you?

Dan Letzring: Really for me, as long as I'm not losing money on it. For me really, every year I want to get bigger and better. I want to put out maybe more games, or if not more games, sell more of the games I'm putting out that year, or have better Kickstarters or more funding. Personal goals like that. Really for me, as long as I'm having these successful campaigns, and the games are being well received, and people are really enjoying them, for me that's success right there. Because as of right now, it'd be great someday to be able to do a full time, but this isn't my full time thing either. You know I recognize it for what it is, as me doing this on the side. If I'm putting these games out and people are liking this then that's a win for me, and I'm happy at that point.

Overrated Underrated Game

Patrick Rauland: Love it. Cool, so let's move on to the last little thing. I like to play this game called overrated-underrated, and basically I'm going to give you a word or a phrase, and then you're going to have to tell me whether you think people think it's overrated or underrated. If I said Star Wars you're going to say clearly underrated, it's the best franchise ever. Got it?

Dan Letzring: Okay.

Patrick Rauland: Cool. First one, asymmetrical games. Are they overrated or underrated?

Dan Letzring: I think they're overrated. I think there are very few popular ones, and I think they're great, I love them, so I think that they should get more hype than they do. I'm not just saying that because I'm running one right now, but I think in general I've always really enjoyed them, and I don't think they get as much love as they should.

Patrick Rauland: Love it. This one's a little bit long. Live action versions of an animated movie. For example Hook, or I think Beauty and the Beast just had one as well.

Dan Letzring: That's a hard one, because there are some that are great and some that are terribly done. I think if they stick to the original movie more … That's not even a thing I could say. I'm going to have to put out some. Hook, Beauty and the Beast, even Maleficent, were fantastic, and they were fantastic for different reasons. Jungle Book I didn't love, and Cinderella I didn't love. They've been kind of hit or miss. I'm going to have to put that one right in the middle.

Patrick Rauland: All right. Next one, platformers, and by platformers I mean those sort of side scrolling video games.

Dan Letzring: Oh, these are the games I grew up with, of course these are underrated, they're amazing.

Patrick Rauland: Last one, T-rexes. Overrated or underrated?

Dan Letzring: They're definitely underrated. I'm a dinosaur lover man, come on! T-rexes are amazing!

Patrick Rauland: But they can't pick up anything with their tiny tiny hands!

Dan Letzring: I know but their heads are huge and their teeth are so big, they can eat whatever they need. They just bend over and grab it with their head.


Patrick Rauland: Love it. Dan, thank you for being on the show. Where can people find you online?

Dan Letzring: My company is Letiman Games, L-E-T-I-M-A-N Games. On Twitter I'm @LetimanGames, Instagram also. On Facebook it's Facebook.com/LetimanGames. And www.LatimanGames.com. From there anyone can find me and contact me, I'm readily available and pretty much always there and available to answer questions.

Patrick Rauland: Is it possible … This will probably come out a week or two after your game, The Neverland Rescue, is done. Is there anyway to link back or anything like that?

Dan Letzring: Yeah, so there'll be a link on the Kickstarter page, and it'll be linked on my website and everywhere else, to pre-order it. Usually what I do is, the pre-orders are typically a little than what the Kickstarter was, but they're still going to be below MSRP with shipping.

Patrick Rauland: Awesome. Dan, thank you so much for being on the show, and for you viewers, if you like this podcast, please leave us a review on iTunes or wherever you're listening to this. If you do leave a review, Dan said that he'd spread fairy dust over your next game design so that it's 100% amazing. Thank you Dan for offering that.

Dan Letzring: Yeah, no problem, I just want to make their games magical, that's all. Best I can do.

Patrick Rauland: You can visit us at IndieBoardGameDesingers.com and you can follow me on Twitter, @BFTrick. Until next time, happy designing. Thanks everyone, bye-bye.

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