Patrick Rauland: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Indie Board Game Designers podcast, where I sit down with a different independent game designer every single week, and we talk about the experience they gained along the way and the lessons they've learned. My name is Patrick Rauland, and today I'll be talking with Brigette Indelicato, who designed The Plot Thickens, which is a storytelling game that she co-designed with a few different people. I have had too much coffee, but Bridget, welcome to the show.
Brigette Indelicato: Thanks so much.
Patrick: OK, so I like to start with a lightning round game to introduce you to the guests. Cool?
Patrick: All right. What is your favorite fiction book of all time?
Brigette: The first thing that comes to mind is Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Sci-Fi novels are some of my favorites and that one's just so fun and silly.
Patrick: Yes, absolutely, it's really good. Now, you're a graphic designer, and I have experience designing software. So I always think about software that fails. So in the graphic design world, what is the most recent graphic design failure that you've seen or experienced?
Brigette: I've definitely had my share of them over the last decade or so, graphic designing. The first thing that comes to mind is board game related. I did the graphic design for War Chest, the game from AEG and a pet peeve that a few people have taken and mentioned on BGG is that the hexes that you're supposed to take over, the graphic that delineates that they're supposed to be taken over doesn't go all the way past where the tokens are, which is just such a dumb. It changed so many times that I didn't test the last version to see how it all overlaid. Seeing those comments and people taking a Sharpie marker to their board were a little painful. But it was a good lesson.
Patrick: It's also nice that you brought up your own example because when I think of software design fails, I think of other people's software. I don't think about my own, and my own is obviously perfect. The third question is, “What is a game you play with someone every single time at a convention?”
Brigette: Recently, I've been playing a lot of Just One with friends at conventions. Just because my brain is usually shot by the end of the day of talking to people and looking at prototypes and all that stuff, that or Telestrations is used to be one that would always come out at conventions. It's just like a fun, social one to play with the new people that you just met.
Patrick: Is Just One the one where you have to give people clues, and if two people have the same clue, they have to erase them?
Patrick: I've played that one time, I like that game.
Brigette: Yeah, it's a really good one.
Tell Me About The Plot Thickens
Patrick: So you made a game about storytelling, called The Plot Thickens. I think to start, where did a storytelling game come from? Maybe to start, what is The Plot Thickens and then where did it come from?
Brigette: Sure. So The Plot Thickens is a collaborative storytelling card game. There are three decks of cards. There are people, places, and things. On your turn, you have a hand of five of those cards, and then you improvise a story with your turn. Throughout the game, other people use these people, places, and things. The object of the game is to interconnect the stories, as much as possible. At the end of the game, the person who connected the most gets to say how the story ends. The person who is connected to, the person who contributed fun things to interact with, they get to name the story.
It's more collaborative and about having a fun experience. The idea came from– we were playing, me and my co-designers, Tom and Mike, we played some other storytelling games, and we realized all of the ones that we had played were competitive. You didn't ever really tell a good story, because the mechanic was normally “OK, I'm taking it over. I'm interrupting you.” Also, quiet people would have a hard time playing those types of stories. That's what inspired us like, “What would a collaborative storytelling game look like?” Then it went from there.
Patrick: Very cool. I've played a couple of those. Played a storytelling game just like that where there are interrupt cards, and then you take control of the story. You're playing cards to continue telling the story, but you're just trying to shed your cards as fast as possible. You do that basically until someone interrupts area. Interesting.
Brigette: Which can be fun with the right group, but we found there were people in our group that never jump in because they don't have that type of personality that I'm going to interrupt someone else. That was definitely something that we wanted, especially with that end game result. Even if you don't connect to other people's as much, even if you contribute one fun idea, you might get to name the story in the end.
Patrick: The other thing– I am just thinking about those types of games, is there's also a moment of I'm just going to call it “Feel-Badsies” where I've played a couple of storytelling games like this, where someone interrupts and then someone else interrupts the interrupter immediately. So they get out one card, instead of five cards and then through bad timing, you might only be able to play one card in the entire game, which is not great. So anyway, it's very cool that you tried to solve that problem, I like it.
Brigette: Yeah, thanks.
Why Did You Decide to Create Three Genres?
Patrick: One of the things that I like is you– Basically, I don't know if I should call them expansions or modules, but you have basically three different genres, Romance, Sci-Fi, and Detective. Why did you decide to create those three, right out of the get-go?
Brigette: Sure. When we very first developed the game, we came up with the Noir theme first, which is where The Plot Thickens title comes from as well. Then, as we were developing it, we thought that's not necessarily going to resonate with every type of player. As a big Sci-Fi fan, that was the next one that we thought of because improvising a Star Trek inspired a story, or something, would be easier for someone who's really into those types of things, as opposed to a detective story.
Then we came up with the Romance idea. I think the three were, “What are those classic pulp paperback novels?” They're either a Mystery, a Sci-Fi or a Romance. That's what brought those three, and we developed the three together as we were working on it because we also say that you can mix and match. If you want to play a Sci-Fi Noir, you use half of each deck of the two sets. The most silly one is a Romance Sci-Fi which can get pretty hysterical.
Patrick: Yeah, I bet. Very cool. One of the things I think about for people who want to make their own game, and maybe they want to become a publisher and make money off of it and do this full time, I wonder if having– Because it sounds like you basically have four different versions of the game. I think it gives people who like the game the opportunity to buy a lot of your product. Do you see a lot of people– I don't know how people buy this, but do people buy all four or do they only buy one?
Brigette: Long answer to this question, the game was part of Hasbro's Next Great Game challenge. That was how we put it out there. Through that, we had to run a crowdfunding campaign to show the market viability of the game. Through that, the majority of people bought the three games together, as a set. We offered it as a set, and then each of the individual ones and almost everyone who backed did the set of three. I think there were a few people who did only one.
I think there were a few people who just wanted Romance. We did find that, through playtesting, that was the one that people thought was the most fun, I think because it's the silliest. Also, a genre that maybe not as many other games are a romance paperback novel kind of theme. I think people do treat it as a set. We definitely have framed it that way, too. It's not available, and we don't have it for sale right now. We're in the process of trying to find a publisher for it, so we've pitched to a number different companies over the years, so fingers crossed that that go somewhere at some point.
Do You Have Ideas for Other Genres?
Patrick: So I guess that means it's on hold. Did you have ideas for other genres? Maybe you learned through the Kickstarter– Or sorry, through IndieGoGo, that people also really want a fantasy genre or something like that?
Brigette: Yeah, definitely. We had been– Horror and fantasy were the next two that we are thinking about, just because they're also really popular and also mixing horror with some of the other ones could be a fun way to twist some of the genres. So we did develop and playtest some of the horror words. It does make it easy that we can just– essentially when we're creating a new version, we have to come up with the new words and then try them out to see “All right. No one uses this one, or this is a weird thing within the context of the other words.” So it is easy to try out different ones.
Throughout playtesting too, we got a lot of feedback about the idea of teachers being able to use it or people learning English as a second language, because you're looking at these different words and trying to use them in sentences and in stories. We thought about like what a kid's version would be as well, and maybe it's just an adventure, or– That's something that has been in the back of our minds as well.
Patrick: Very cool. I love how infinitely expandable and flexible that is. I think a lot of game designers when they come up with an expansion, is usually a whole set of extra mechanics that you layer on the game. What's cool for yours is it's extra content. The core game is the same, and you're just adding extra content, which is maybe easier to do. So anyway, I hope you find a publisher for it because it sounds cool.
Brigette: Thank you.
When Is The Right Time to Begin Working on the Graphic Design for a Game?
Patrick: You have experience as a graphic designer. You've worked on your own games, and you have designed games for other people, as you mentioned, War Chest by AEG. Having done graphic design for different people– Here's a problem I have. When is the right time to start working on the graphic design for a game? I basically go from note cards with scribblings on them, and I playtest a couple of times that way, to wanting to have fully done cards. I know there's probably some in-between stage, but I don't know where that is.
Brigette: Yeah, definitely. I think that is a challenge for a lot of people because you don't want to be doing a ton of graphic design at the very beginning because when you're prototyping, you want to be able to iterate quickly and try something out and then trash it. You don't want to get married to different things, just because you already put all this time into laying out. I think that has been an advantage I've had as a graphic designer and a game designer, is that it's pretty easy for me to like throw a couple things together so that it looks a little bit nicer than if I hand-drew it, or something.
I think in the beginning, as rough as possible to get your prototype quickly and easily. That's the focus when you're first starting out. But I do think there is a medium place, where maybe you use PowerPoint or some quick way to make it very clean and say “OK, it does work best if the icon is over here.” Because the graphic design does have a lot to do with how a player interacts with the game or how easy it is to learn or use the different functions of cards and boards and things like that. I do think it makes sense to think about halfway through and not just at the very end when you hand it off to someone to do some graphic design.
Patrick: Yeah, I'm working on a game right now, and one of the things in the game is there's the front side of cards and the backside of cards, and the one of the sides is better than the other side, and you have to know that information. From the table, I now realize the two sides of cards have to be very different. One has to be a white background, one has to be a red background or something like that because it's important information, but I don't think I would have learned that if I didn't start playing with graphic design.
I do think you need to start somewhere and start working on your icons, and start working on the layout and “How are things going to going to work?” I wonder if it's more like every time you do a playtest, add a little bit more graphic design or spend a little bit more time on it? Do you think that's probably a good idea?
Brigette: Yeah, perhaps. I think it probably depends, too, what type of game you're working on, how many elements are changing each time that you make a prototype? If you're balancing with numbers, then you can probably get further and further along with graphic design.
Advice on Self-Publishing and Working with a Graphic Designer
Patrick: Very cool. I mentioned before, you work on other people's games doing the graphic design, so you're a freelancer helping people with graphic design. I've worked with graphic designers in the past. I've only worked with one graphic designer in the board game world, I've worked with illustrators before. So tell me, what do I need to know about working with a graphic designer in the board game world? Specifically, as someone– Let's say I want to self-publish, what information do I need to give you about my game so you can do a really good job with the graphic design?
Brigette: Sure. These are all my personal preferences, I think. But in general, I think they work well. I would always recommend bringing on a graphic designer and illustrators at the same time. I think a lot of companies or people like to do “Alright, I'm going to just hire this illustrator and then I'm going to take these illustrations and give them to the graphic designer.” But I think for me, the projects that I've worked on, where we've been able to work in tandem, have been great because you want it to feel cohesive and like it's all part of the same style and the same art direction.
Some graphic designers do art direction as well. Some of the projects that I work on, I'm doing the graphic design and then doing the art direction and hiring of the illustrators and all that, so it's one cohesive package. I think that's a good idea, starting out, is said to have them both on the same wavelength, so that it doesn't look like you just stuck one style on top of another. Like you were talking about, with the two different sides of your cards, I think any information like that is great because you've spent a ton of time prototyping it.
You know how people interact with the cards. One of the things with The Plot Thickens is we had a way that we thought was the best way to set it up on the table so that the cards wouldn't get mixed up. For whatever reason, that wasn't very intuitive, and people always wanted to set them up one way or thought that the colors needed to match, or something like that. Knowing that was part of the way that I laid them out, graphic design-wise, to make it more intuitive that you lay them out horizontally.
If there was some challenge like that through prototyping, you could let your graphic designer know “Hey, I always run into this problem with the interface. What do you think you can do about that?” Because I think the graphic design can have a really big impact on those types of usability issues.
What is Art Direction?
Patrick: At the beginning of this, you mentioned art direction. Can you talk about that, and what that is?
Brigette: Sure. For me, it means that– or I guess in general, the art director can be in charge of the look and the feel of everything. Sometimes as a graphic designer, a client will tell me, “OK. It looks like this. This is the style. This is the direction that we're going.” But as an art director, I get to decide that, prototype that, come up with a couple of different concepts.
For War Chest for AEG, that was a really fun project, because even in the beginning there were a couple different, almost theme variations, that they were thinking about. I created different mood boards and explored what the whole style could be, which I think is fun and can result in a better end product when you think about it, from the beginning to the end product.
Patrick: So could someone come to you before they even have a theme? If they have an amazing set of mechanisms and they want to “Hey, I think this could be a pirate game. I think it could be a zombie game or I think it could be a Sci-Fi game. Here's how it works, here's this, I need some cards and some tokens. Could you create some mood boards for me?” Would that be something that a graphic designer could do?
Brigette: Yeah. Absolutely.
Patrick: Cool. I think I do my own art direction. I always create what I always call “a creative brief,” which is “I want it like this, not this. I want it to feel like this, not this.” Then I give that to my graphic designer or my illustrator. I guess I do my own art direction, probably not as well as you. Cool. It's cool to know you can basically find a graphic designer to help you all the way through if you need it.
Brigette: Yeah, absolutely. I've done, for AEG also, done prototype early on in their testing phase of it of a game design, created that bare-bones, but figuring out where everything lays, so that they can do prototyping with that first pass at the graphic design and then the next phase of polishing it for the final product. So yeah, I think it can be part of your process throughout if that's what you want.
Are There Parts of Graphic Design You Can Do On Your Own?
Patrick: Very cool. So I'm a frugal person, so I try to save money where I can. Is there a part of graphic design that people can do on their own, and they don't realize they can do it on their own? Does that make sense?
Brigette: Sure. Yeah, I do think it seems like everyone has a different– game designers that I've talked to, different ways of mocking up their prototypes and I do think there are a lot of different ways that you can make that easier. If you have Adobe Creative Suite, InDesign has a great– it's called Data Merge so that you can take an Excel sheet of all of your card information and automatically populate all of your cards so that you don't have to be individually tweaking every little thing.
Daniel Solis has a great– I believe it's on his blog, I think he also has a skillshare class, but he has a bunch of great resources about how to use those types of tools to make prototyping easier and making card sheets and things. I learned that stuff from him, actually, the data merge thing. I think there are tools like that, that maybe people don't know about and they haven't found the thing that they like.
I also feel like I've seen on Twitter that Elizabeth Hargrave uses some programming thing to populate her cards. I think everyone can find the tool that works best for you, but when you're working on something that has a ton of cards and components, definitely makes it worth it to figure out a system, so that you're not tweaking every little thing by hand.
Advice For Unpublished Board Game Designers
Patrick: Very cool. One of the things we talked about, right before we started recording, is that basically you are doing graphic design work in the board game– Or, designing your game and then doing some graphic design work in the board game world, opens you up to new experiences. I want to go into that. I think here's the question I want to ask, if someone is trying to make a game, maybe they've made it, but they haven't signed it to a publisher, or they don't know if they want to run their own Kickstarter, and they feel like their wheels are spinning. What is advice you would give to that person?
Brigette: Sure. I feel like the board game community, and the connections that I've made in the industry are definitely more valuable than the game design itself, that I've created. Especially since we haven't had it completely picked up yet, but through prototyping, The Plot Thickens, it was the first game that I did. I did the graphic design for it since it made sense for me to do it, but it also made me realize “Hey, people need graphic design for board games, and that would be cool to do.” I'm based out of Philadelphia, we have a game makers guild, in Philly, of different game designers who are prototyping and working on things.
I met a ton of amazing people, including Nicole and Anthony Amato, who helped me get connected with a bunch of other people. Through that is how I got the majority of the clients that I have in the board game industry, just through word of mouth. “I met this person at a convention. This person recommended me to them.” I think, the time that I spent on the plot thickens and game design, in general, has opened up so many doors and opportunities that weren't even related to game design in and of itself.
Even if your game isn't getting where you necessarily expected it to be, or thought that it would be, because that's, a lot of times, based on outside things, like the companies that you can get it in front of, how many things are getting published at any given time, you can still be moving forward with the skills that you have and the connections that you're making, because those are going to continue to be valuable.
Patrick: Yeah, totally. I've heard this numerous times on the podcast, basically, if you invest in your community, new opportunities you couldn't have even imagined will appear in front of you. Is that kind of– ?
Patrick: Yeah. Awesome.
Brigette: Yeah. That's a great way to put it.
Patrick: I've had Nicole and Anthony Amato on, looks like episode 36 if you want to listen to them. They seem like they're awesome. I haven't met them in person yet, but they seem like they're fantastic.
Brigette: They are the most awesome. They are also based in Philly, and they're good friends of ours. They helped a ton with The Plot Thickens and connecting us to people, so I'm grateful for that.
Tell Me About Your Design Process
Patrick: Sometimes, I think you need the connection. Maybe they'll make the connection to the small publisher you didn't know existed, that makes exactly your type of game. I totally agree with you. Basically, if you feel like your wheels are spinning, spend a little bit more time making connections and helping other people, and an opportunity might present itself. I love it that advice, cool. Tell me a little bit about your design process. How long do you spend time working on games? Are you constantly coming up with new game ideas? Do you spend time designing stuff? How do you do design?
Brigette: Sure. With The Plot Thickens specifically, we designed that over two or three years, before we entered it into that Hasbro contest. That was on an off and on– we came up with the idea, we made some prototypes. It was once we got into going to events and things, that it really went quickly because getting all that feedback got us energized to keep moving with it. I just recently went full time with my freelance graphic design and art direction business.
Part of my inspiration for that, was to have some time to game design as well because before I was working full time and freelance graphic designing, there wasn't enough space for that game design slot in the schedule. I have one prototype of a party-type game that I'm working on now, that I'm hoping to have a prototype. We try to go to METATOPIA every year, that's a great playtesting event. I'm hoping to have something that I playtested with local people before I bring it there.
A lot of times, I try to use that as a deadline. I'm like “OK, I need to bring a prototype to this event, so going to have to work on that sometime soon.” Right now, it is that extra thing, but I'm glad to have that wiggle room in my schedule now so that I can be working on design as well. I'm constantly– I have a word document, a Google Doc, of all the random “Oh, that would be a cool theme for a game.” Or some random mechanism, or whatever, pops in my head. I've got a running list of a bunch of nonsense ideas that hopefully something cool will coalesce from, again in the future.
Patrick: Yes, I 100% have that. I have an Evernote folder of game design ideas, and some of them are very bad. Very bad. It's still fun to write them down.
Brigette: Yeah, definitely. I feel like it's good to write it all down because you never know. That first idea or that first iteration of whatever it is may seem bad, but it could inspire some new thing off shooting off that. I always feel like it's better to write it all down because you never know what it will spark.
Tell Me About Your Experience with Crowdfunding
Patrick: So you made this game with a couple of co-designers. You were part of this challenge, you launched it on IndieGoGo. I didn’t look up the exact campaign, but I imagine it sounds like lots of people got copies and it's at least moderately successful. Has that changed your process at all? When you launch another game on some crowdfunding site, either IndieGoGo, Kickstarter or some new one, would you do it the same way? Would you change anything about your process?
Brigette: The only reason we did do a crowdfunding campaign for the game was that it was required as part of the challenge. I think had we not done the challenge, and actually, I think prior to being part of the contest, we were pitching the publishers. Running a crowdfunding campaign is exhausting. For that one month and even the month running up to it. It's not even like we ran a huge campaign or anything. But doing all that social media and doing all the updates and getting to events to promote it and stuff.
It's a ton of work, so I think I would rather pitch to publishers and have them pick things up and be able to– I think for me, as a game designer, it's less about being able to treat it as a product, or something that I could be having a certain income flow from and more, just like “Here's this cool thing I made, that I want people to enjoy.” To me, finding a publisher to pick it up, means that it's going to get distributed more widely. I think that that's what I'll likely, and what we'll likely try to focus on moving forward. I don't know, Kickstarters can be a lot of fun though, too.
Patrick: Let me rephrase the question. Is there something you'd change in your game design process? About the way you made the last game, vs. the next game you make. Would you prototype earlier? Would you do more blind playtesting? Would you have more reviewers? That's for Kickstarter. Would you make a game that plays two to three players, instead of four-plus? Something like that.
Brigette: I don't know if there's anything specific that we didn't do, or that we did, that I think that we shouldn't. I feel like we did do a ton of testing and I do feel like that is very important and that I won't try to rush it. I think it was a good call to test it a lot and get lots of feedback.
What's a Resource You'd Recommend?
Patrick: Moving towards the end here, I always like to ask people, is there a resource you would recommend to another indie game designer? Usually something free or cheap, like a book, audiobook, blog, podcast, excluding this one. That's something like that people can dig into.
Brigette: Sure. I think I already mentioned Daniel Solis' blog about game design and game graphic design. I definitely recommend checking that out. I'm pretty sure he has stuff on his blog, and then he also has a Patreon with some extra content, but he makes a lot of awesome stuff, and he's designed some really cool games too, Junk Orbit is one of my favorites of his, from Renegade, if you've ever played that one?
Patrick: I haven't.
Brigette: It's cool and space themed. I am a sucker for a space theme. Other than that, just getting involved with a community. Philadelphia has the Game Makers Guild. I know pretty much any city has a game organization that you can be a part of. There's Slack channels, and there's Facebook groups. I think that connecting with other people– Game design can take a lot of time and it feels very personal because you're investing a lot of creative energy in something for a long time and having other people.
I think it's easy to get tunnel vision, those types of projects. Getting outside opinions and perspectives is important. Even if you have to do it virtually, connecting with people in the industry who are also making cool stuff is the biggest thing, I think, resource-wise.
What's the Best Money You've Spent?
Patrick: Now, I always like to ask people, I usually frame this as “I'm a frugal person. I try not to spend money when I don't have to.” What is something that is definitely worth every single cent that you paid for it? A piece of software, components, just whatever.
Brigette: The first thing that comes to mind, is using The Game Crafter to make prototypes because they make awesome stuff and it's great to be able to do just a couple of copies to bring to an event or something like that. I think that was money well spent for those things. I also have a paper cutter that's good for cards. Those are the first two things that come to my mind.
Patrick: You know what's funny, is the paper cutter comes up quite often. If you make a game with lots of cards, the paper cutter moves very quickly up your priority list.
Brigette: Yeah, definitely.
What Does Success Look Like?
Patrick: Very cool. Awesome. My last real question is, what does success in the board game world look like to you?
Brigette: I think as a board game graphic designer, my goal was to be able to make it my full-time thing. I feel excited about reaching that goal, that definitely feels like a success. My next big goal is to be able to offer even more. I've wanted to get into doing some illustration type work. I've just recently branched off into the art direction stuff. I think success in the board game world, for me, is to continue expanding my skills and being able to offer creative services to people who are making cool games and working with lots of different companies. Yeah, being able to keep doing that.
Patrick: Awesome. Love that. I've been working for myself for I think right about 3 years now. Congrats on that. That's very cool to be your own boss.
Brigette: Thank you. Yeah, it's a little scary, but it was worth the leap I think.
Overrated / Underrated
Patrick: When friends ask me, especially the first year or two when like “Hey, how's your business going?” I would always respond, “I can still feed myself and pay my mortgage.” My level of success was like “Feed self, pay mortgage, good to go.” After the first year or two, I think you get less paranoid and then you set higher goals. I like to end with a silly game called Overrated/Underrated. Have you heard about it?
Brigette: I have not.
Patrick: So basically, I'm going to give you a word or phrase, and you need to tell me if it is underrated or overrated. If I said “tree houses,” you'd be like “Underrated. They're clearly the best fun time activity to do ever.” Something like that. Make sense?
Patrick: First one is games you can fit in your pocket. Overrated or underrated?
Patrick: I think that they're underrated. I do like some of the wallet games from Button Shy. I just recently went on vacation and had to figure out how to fit all of the different card games that I wanted to bring, in my suitcase. I'm going to say underrated.
Patrick: Love it. How about, I'm assuming what this is, slash fiction, overrated or underrated? I will not explain that, if people don't know what that is, you can look it up.
Brigette: I can't say I have a ton of experience, so I can't say either way.
Patrick: I just made an assumption with the writing, or the storytelling game, that might have come up in some of your playtesting.
Brigette: Sure. Sure.
Patrick: OK, so how about this cardboard inserts for games, overrated or underrated?
Brigette: I might say “properly rated” because I think most people feel strongly about the inserts. I think that's the right way to feel. My husband calls it the canyon of bull- when there's just two edges and just everything's floating around in there. I think a good insert is totally worth getting excited about.
Patrick: Last one, choose your own adventure books. Overrated or underrated?
Brigette: Oh, I think underrated. I think those are a ton of fun. I was excited when they had a little resurgence recently. There were a couple of games that were inspired by those.
Patrick: Yeah. Awesome. Great answers. Bridget, thank you so much for being on the show.
Brigette: Thank you so much for having me.
Patrick: Where can people find you and your games online?
Brigette: People can find me at brigetteidesign.com. That's a portfolio of my game design and graphic design work. Then I'm also on Twitter at the same, @brigetteidesign. Feel free to say hello.
Patrick: Very cool. Listeners, if you like this podcast please leave us a review on iTunes. If you do, Bridget said she that she would review the plot for a story you're writing. So that's pretty cool. That's all that I got. You can visit the site at IndieBoardGameDesigners.com. You can follow me on Twitter, and I'm @BFTrick. I'm out of here. Bye-bye. Oh, and until next time, happy designing. Can't forget my sign-off line.