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Patrick Rauland: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Indie Board Game Designers podcast, where I sit down with a different independent game designer every single week, and we talk about their experience in game design and the lessons they've learned along the way. My name is Patrick Rauland, and today I'll be talking to Julio Nazario, who designed and signed a handful of games, although none of them have come out quite yet. Julio, welcome to the show.

Julio Nazario: Hey Patrick. Thanks for having me.

Introduction

Patrick: Listeners, you have to know Julio gets extra credit because we were having so many technical difficulties. He and I have probably already talked for an hour. He is awesome, and now I want to introduce his awesomeness to you with a little game. Julio, ready for a little game?

Julio: Yes, sir.

Patrick: Great. What is your favorite game you played at Origins?

Julio: I didn't play any published games at Origins, but I did play a lot of prototypes, and one of my favorites was definitely Calico by Kevin Russ. It's going to be published by Flatout Games. It's a tile-laying game where you're making quilts, and you're trying to attract cats to it, but it's such a beautiful game, and Kevin has done such a great job. I'm looking forward to that Kickstarter from Flatout Games.

Patrick: Awesome. It looks really good. I was in the room when he was playtesting it, and I wish I sat at his table so I could have given it a go. Maybe next time. Then I heard on another podcast, you like Super Smash Brothers. Who is your favorite character?

Julio: Super Smash Brothers and I have a long history. I've played it since Nintendo 64, and I've loved it all the way. My favorite character is Ice Climbers. I always loved that you could control two characters at the same time, and they work together really well. But there has been changes I have some other characters that I like, [inaudible] [trainer] is another one that's very rare, and not many people use it. I usually try to use characters that people don't use, Lucario is another one. Smash Brothers is a fun game. Too bad I don't get to play it much anymore.

Patrick: I hear you. What is a game you play with someone every single time at a convention?

Julio: I don't look for specific games that I want to play, but I do like to play games so if somebody comes to me excited to play a game, let it be a prototype or a new published game or an old published game, as long as it's not a three hour game I'm happy to play.

How Did You Get Into Board Games & Board Game Design?

Patrick: Awesome. First real question. How did you get into board games and board game design?

Julio: I've only been into board games for about three and a half years now, or since early 2016. I bought a used copy of Tim– What is it? It's Pixel Tactics 2. I had my brother in law with me here, and we played that game a lot throughout Christmas. That was my little intro to board game design, and of course, after that, I played Ticket to Ride and Catan and all of that. But that was my intro to that. Board game design was back in 2017, or mid-2017. It's been two years now that I got the idea to work on a game based on trees. I was out with a co-worker, I work in a national forest, and he was talking about all these colored trees like red maple, blue spruce, black walnut, white pine. I'm like “All these trees have colors. There should be a game in here.” That's how my first game Timber Tactics came to be.

Patrick: I love that your first game was about trees, and not about orcs and goblins and castles and spaceships, and all that stuff. Kudos to you on that. That's awesome.

Julio: Yeah, I was a boy scout. Nature and I have a close bond.

How was Origins?

Patrick: Awesome. I should have mentioned this at the beginning, but we met at Origins and actually got to play one of your prototypes Dulce, which is a game about making sweets. It was really fun to play– It was a very different game than I typically play, but I want to ask overall, how was Origins? What did you–? Did you enjoy Origins, and did you get what you wanted out of it?

Julio: I loved it. This is the third time I've been to Origins, and it's my favorite convention. If a designer can only go to one convention, go to Origins. It's a great balance between a big convention and a small convention, even though 20,000 people came this year. So it's not that small, but as for meeting people and networking, pitching to publishers, it's great. Publishers are starting to look for newer games for their next year releases, so they're open to more pitches, and they're more relaxed on the selling front. They're open to taking meetings.

If a designer can only go to one convention, go to Origins.

Patrick: Yeah. I have to agree. I went to Gen Con 10-11 years ago, and then I went again last year, and it is such a madhouse. It's so nice to go to Origins where it's just– The hallways aren't cramped. I know that sounds like a weird reason not to go to a convention, but it's nice to not be cramped everywhere you go.

Julio: Exactly. Even with those 20,000 people, there was still a lot of space to go around, especially in the unpub room. The unpub room was always, there were some times that it was full, but there was always some time to hang around and sit around and talk with people.

How Are You So Prepared?

Patrick: Yes, absolutely. I wanted to talk about something that I just noticed– In person I noticed, I was inspired at how prepared you were to meet publishers. To give you context, this is the first time I'd ever set up a meeting with a publisher. I did publisher speed dating the year before, but this is the first time where I'm like “Here's a publisher. They made these components.” I was pitching someone on a game that has metal components, and I was like, “I bet they might like this type of game.” It was nice to set all this stuff up ahead of time, and I did publisher speed dating again, but I was so impressed at how prepared you were.

Patrick: I think at one point I saw you talk– I think it was during publisher speed dating, and you were saying “Here's the sell sheet for this.” And they said, “We're really looking for a game like this.” And you were like, “Let me pull out my other folder. In my other folder, I have a game that's just like that.” I assume you had a bag full of sell sheets and you had 200 games with you, and you just always pitched the perfect game to the perfect publisher. How did you prepare for a con like this?

Julio: 200 games may be a bit much, but I did have around eleven with me that I was pitching. But I do have a little of everything. Even though it was publisher speed dating, I actually felt very relaxed. I just set up a game that I knew had a good table presence and they may still be interested just by looking at it, but if it was too big of a game I was like “What are you interested in?”

Julio: Even though it's five minutes that you have, you can still have a good conversation because even if you don't have a game that they may be interested in, you'll know what they're interested in and maybe you can contact them in the future or get a card. It's always good to put a name to a face. But when it comes to getting prepared, that is definitely one thing I want to do. If I have a lot of games that I want to be pitching, I want to make sure that everything's organized, and I don't seem like a madman with a bag full of games. “You want to take this game? You want to take this game?”

Julio: No, so I try to research publishers in advance and try to find what they have published and contact them at least a month in advance and see if they're interested with a sell sheet premise of the game, general information on the game. Sometimes even a video pitch of the game. The easier the game is to understand the shorter the video. It's a lot of time to put into the design front and getting prepared. But it pays out in the end, for sure.

Patrick: Yeah. That's great. I agree you don't appear like a crazy person. “Do you want a game? Do you want this game?” I think you do want to be prepared. It's interesting you brought up asking publishers what they wanted during the speed dating event, I think they almost want you to have one game. You pitched one game, but I had two games, and I asked people which one they wanted to hear more about, and I have to say that was super interesting.

Patrick: To figure out some people are like “Abstract? No, I don't want to hear about that.” And some people were like “I definitely want to hear about the abstract.” I didn't think about asking them entirely, “What do you want to hear about?” I just asked them, “Which one of these two options do you want?” But maybe for future years, I'll bring– Because I have three or four games that are in pretty good state and are ready to be pitched. Maybe I can bring more of them with me.

Julio: Yeah. It's also– It's a stressful environment for us, but I think it's more stressful for them because they are learning something new every five minutes and it's a two-hour event. Sometimes they want to talk, and if you do have something that they may be interested in then contact them later and have a pitch, a normal pitch like a 30-minute pitch that they can arrange with you.

What is the Right Ratio of Playtesting & Pitching?

Patrick: Sure, that makes sense. Let me ask you this, and this is still an area of game design that I'm really bad at. I'm really bad at setting up meetings, and I don't find it very enjoyable. But is there a good ratio of playtesting–? Playtesting your games, playtesting other people's games, and pitching publishers? Maybe other networking events? Like, do you always try to set up five pitches or something like that before you go to a con?

Julio: It really depends of what I have available to pitch, and also what I have to playtest. But one thing that's always constant is that you want to playtest other people's games. It's not just because you want them to playtest yours, but just because you want to see what people are working on and get to know them as people and as designers. I always like to play other people's games and even better when I get to play games with people that I just met because that definitely tells you a lot of the person as a designer and as a person as well. When it comes to pitching, I try to get as many pitches as I can, but not to overextend myself too much. As in, if I have a meeting at one, I don't want to set up a meeting at two.

Patrick: Right.

Julio: Because this meeting may run long, it may run short, but if it does run long I don't want to be on a negative spectrum of another person, like “This person stood me up.” I want to leave some space between my meetings.

Patrick: Sure.

Julio: If it works out, good. If it doesn't, then there's some time between this meeting and the next meeting and I can do some playtesting, or playtest my games or playtests other people's games.

What Do You Do With Games That Aren't Accepted?

Patrick: I'm thinking in my head, I think I have three games that I'm at a good point where I can pitch them to people, I think they're really far– They're pretty far along. There's still room for the publishers to do graphic design and stuff, but the game– The mechanics is all there. If I go through a whole season– I don't go to many convention, I go to Origins, and I'm going to go to Gen Con this year, I might go to BGG Con for the first time this year. But let's say I go through this whole season and no one is interested in my games, do I shelve them? Do I bring them back to Origins next year? Do I try to pitch different things? Maybe I'm asking, “When is a game done?” And I mean “Done” as in you give up on it.

Julio: It really depends on how much you believe in your game because it is hard for sure to get rejected on pitches and stuff. You're like, “This game may not be as good as I thought it was.” But I always recommend people to work on multiple games at a time because a game is never finished, you've always got something you can do to a game to make it better, you don't know what it is at that moment. But if you are working on different games then while you're thinking about a game you may get an idea for a different game. But at the same time, if you're not excited to keep working on that game, then that may be a sign that you may want to shelve that for a while.

Patrick: I think as soon as my game is done, like I've submitted a couple of games to contests, I tend to turn off my brain, and it's like I just forget– Not forget about it, but it's like “Cool,” and then I move on to the next contest or something. I think you have the ability of– I think you were really good at selling. You're very good at telling publishers why it actually is a good game for them, and I don't think I get excited about that. I think I need to maybe come up with a system to set up at least five pitches before each convention or something like that. Because otherwise, I don't go that last mile, whereas it seems like you're really good at that last mile.

Julio: Practice makes perfect. Or at least, practice makes pretty good, I guess. But if you pitch a lot, then you'll get better and more comfortable doing it. When I started– It's funny because the first pitch I had was with actually two publishers at the same time and I had four games on the table. I was always nervous and all that, but at the same time it was one of those things that once you start talking, you know everything about your game. Nobody knows more than you do.

Julio: You get comfortable once you get into the rhythm of it, but at the same time, you always have to think about how these people that you're talking to, they're just like you. So don't think of it like there's a barrier between you, have a normal conversation and always consider their stance.

Julio: If you see that they don't look interested then cancel your pitch and talk about “It doesn't seem like you're interested. Is there anything that you're interested in, like that the publisher is currently looking for?” At least get something out of it, some information that can give you some direction to pitch to that publisher in the future. You always can have it in your mind.

What Does Your Process Look Like?

Patrick: Love it. Love that answer. I'd like to talk about your process a little bit. How long do you spend–? Because you've made you have 11 games. You brought eleven games with you to Origins to pitch. How long do you spend on your games? Do you spend every night and weekends making games? Do you somehow make a game in an hour and it's good to go? How long do you spend working on these games?

Julio: I do spend a lot of time on board game design. For my job, I drive a lot, so I get a lot of time to think. That's always good to have your mind palace to playtest your games. But it doesn't usually work, and it's always good to have a physical game to try it for real. But I'm always designing 24/7 at this point.

Julio: But when it comes to the physical prototyping process during the night, during the weekend, as much time as I can squeeze in, I should be working on it. Because right now I know Gen Con is coming up and I'm trying to get ready, I know I've got to update a prototype, and I've got to do one new ruleset and update three rule sets. I got a lot to do, but I also got maybe something new that I want to work on. Which always keeps it interesting, but right now I don't have any other hobbies, Patrick. Board Game Design has taken over my life.

Patrick: Is that a welcome takeover?

Julio: Yeah. Because I do, my significant other, my wife, she loves that I'm doing this because I've never really considered myself as an artistic person and board game design has been a way for me to express myself an artist. Because I'm an engineer and I'm a numbers guy, and I never considered myself the whole artistic, colors, and that kind of person. But board game design has definitely– I have found a voice this way.

Where Do You Get Your Ideas From?

Patrick: That's awesome. Like a creative side, I love it. I'd say I knew your name, I think from the Building the Game Podcast, maybe something else. But I think I knew your name because they talked– I'm pretty sure it was other people talking about you, but they were talking about how you use the box and how you use different components in different unique ways. I want to ask you, is there–? Do you have a secret sauce in terms of finding new and creative ways to use components and the box and all this stuff? Or is it just you spending a lot of time in your mind palace and eventually– You do the hard work, and eventually you find something new and unique?

Julio: I think it's probably a little of both. Again, I do think a lot, and I have a lot of ideas. I have my notes on my phone, that's where most of my ideas are, but I tend to– I try to lean towards– My mantra would be table presence with a purpose.

Table presence with a purpose

Julio's mantra

Patrick: “Table presence with a purpose.” I love that.

Julio: Yeah, because it's always cool to have something that's beautiful on the table, but what does it contribute to the game, to the mechanics, to the theme? I try to do that with my games, and using the box, that's one of those things that was one of my first designs that I got signed that used that box was because I was thinking that the box is the most expensive component on a game, and it's not used for the game. To protect it.

Julio: I wanted to do something that would contribute to the gameplay and use the box, and since then I've signed some games that use the box, and I've designed some games that don't use the box and don't have table presence. But it's good to have something to be known for. It's funny because I don't even have a game out yet, but it's cool too to have something that you can stand out on.

Patrick: Absolutely. I think all of us want to be like, “Patrick. He's the guy that designs these types of games.” I think we all want that, so I think it's pretty cool that I know–At least my impression of you, and I made this joke when I first met you is “Dulce, your latest game, doesn't use the box? Are you feeling, OK?”

Julio: You weren't the only one that said that.

Patrick: That's fantastic.

Julio: It's one of those things that whatever design comes to mind, I– If I think it'll be something fun then I'll do it.

What's Something You're Working On?

Patrick: Great. That's awesome. So, is there a thing that you have tried to design but you just haven't figured out how to design it yet? Is there something that is just out of your reach, something that you're working towards? Either mechanics or theme?

Julio: Yeah. Tons of stuff. I've designed a lot of games that have come to prototype stage and haven't gotten them to work. Again, I thought it worked in my mind, but when I got it to the table, it didn't. One of them was one of the components I always wanted to use, and I did try it, but then it didn't work. It was magnets, using magnetism in a game.

Julio: I had a game called Yin-Yang that had a board that you would flip, and it was actually suspended using the box, and you would move pieces, and those pieces can actually move the pieces underneath the board, and you would flip the board and move around. It sounds awesome, but it didn't work. It was funny because I was thinking about this game the other day, and I'm like, “Maybe you should try this.”

Julio: I haven't worked on this game for months now, but again it's one of those things that is shelved, but you always have it in your mind, and you always think of new ideas to incorporate.

Patrick: Magnets are definitely a cool one. I know of a game where they have a divider between either side of the table, and there's magnets on one side, and it moves pieces on the other side, so it's like Battleship where you can't see the other person's side, but the magnet moves some of the pieces on your side. So, that would be super cool if you could figure out something similar to that. I would love to see more games like that.

Julio: I know that Brain Games is coming out with a game that's like a snail racing game, and it uses a tin box, and it uses magnets, and it uses the box as well. It's one of those things that a lot of designers are doing all these unique components and unique mechanics as well, so there's always something to do. You got to think it before the next person.

What Games Inspire You?

Patrick: Are there any games out there that inspire you, that make you want to do better or more or something like that?

Julio: Yeah, tons. Right now there's a lot of awesome games coming out. For example, that one– I don't even know the name of it, but there's also the game Planet from Blue Orange that looks good. That one also uses magnets, by the way, but it's like a three-dimensional magnet tile-laying game. It's an awesome game. I was inspired by that game to make another game that was a 3D area-control game, and that game got signed, so I'm excited to see that one come out.

Patrick: The Planet game looks great. I immediately am like, “That's such a great–” It makes so much sense to have that 3D component, and I'm jealous, is the best word. I'm totally jealous that I didn't think of that. It's such a cool idea. I'd love to see more along those lines.

Julio: Yeah. I do lean towards simpler designs. The easier it is to explain the better because that means that your audience grows that much more. You can have kids play it, and you could have gamers play it, you could have somebody that never plays games play it, then that's even better.

Any Underappreciated Games?

Patrick: That makes a lot of sense. Are there any– How about this. Are there any underappreciated games out there? A game that is really good, but the market doesn't understand or appreciate it?

Julio: I can't think of one off the top of my head. I would say that maybe one game that I like a lot that nobody really cares for– I'm sorry, Patrick. I have nothing.

Patrick: Cool. Maybe–

Julio: Here's the thing. Again, I'm still new at the board game, not just design but board games in general. I've only been playing board games for three years, so I know there's so many games out there that I haven't played. But at the same time, I think it helps me towards my design. It's a double-edged sword, really, where I think of something that “This is an awesome idea,” and then there's a game that has it already.

Patrick: Right.

Julio: But at the same time, I think of something unique, and it's not out there because I don't have my mind filled up with all these mechanics and games in my head. I still love playing games and stuff, but I try to know about what's coming out, but I don't play as much as I would like to.

Patrick: Yeah, I hear you. It's hard to play new games, because especially if people are talking about them on all the board game podcasts–

Julio: Exactly.

Patrick: I really want to play each of those. If something wins a dice tower award or is in the top 10, I definitely want to play it. But it's so hard to play all those games. At some point, I need to set up, maybe even with my playtest group, “Let's play through the top 10 games this weekend or something, just to get the experience in there.”

Julio: Yeah. I live in Asheville, North Carolina. And there's– I'm so blessed because there's such a big board game group here. Like, people that play board games, they get together six times a month.

Patrick: That's great.

Julio: It’s a group of around 15 to 20 people. I get to go to these meetings, and I try to at least play a new game every time I go there, but at the same time, I can get some playtests in for my games that are at a later stage where I'm trying to even out the rules and get ready for that. It's a good balance.

Patrick: Yeah. I totally hear you. That makes a lot of sense. Six times a month is great. In Denver, I meet up about two times a month, which I'm pretty blessed with that. I know there's a couple cities that have more than two times a month, but not many. So six times a month is fantastic.

Julio: Yeah, and again, it's 15 to 20 people. It's a lot.

Does Game Design Energize or Exhaust You?

Patrick: Yeah. So, let me ask you. I have a question. Does game design energize you and make you want to do more, or does it drain you and you need to manage your energy levels carefully? If that makes sense.

Julio: Here's the thing Patrick, and I'm just going to speak the truth here. Game design is a drug. Yes. I'm not kidding. It's one of those things that you can get addicted to it, like inspiration-wise. You can probably attest to this, when you get inspired it's such a great feeling. You feel like “This is going to work.” It's the dopamine that you get for that, and I don't know what it is. But just designing, in general, is one thing that at this point I want to do it as much as I can.

Julio: Obviously, everything in a large quantity can be bad for you, so I always try to have a balance between that and maybe your family and the people you love in general. Because even though it's good for you and you're doing your creative side, at the same time if you get too attached to it you may get disappointed at some point. That can bring you all the way down even more. I really enjoy it, and I keep doing it again, but there's been down times, and there's been up times. That happens to everybody.

Patrick: Let me ask you a question. I've never heard anyone describe it as a drug before, but that's actually pretty relatable, where I do get that euphoric feeling.

Julio: Yeah.

When You're Inspired Do You Take the Time to Write Down Your Idea?

Patrick: When I have not just a new idea, not like “I should have a dungeon crawling game,” but like “I should have a game about this and these mechanics really match that theme well,” and then I get really excited. Let me ask you a follow up there. So, I'm lucky. I work for myself, and I work from home, so if I want to take a 20-minute break and like write down my ideas, I will. That doesn't usually happen, but I can. Do you follow those feelings, if that makes sense? Like if you are feeling inspired, do you follow them and indulge in them? Or are you like, “I'll get to it this weekend, or get to it this night when I've set aside time for game design?”

Julio: If I'm at work I definitely will write it down somewhere, but I won't work on it.

Patrick: Right.

Julio: But if I do definitely– If I think it's going to work I want to get to it as fast as I can. So again, it is like an addiction. You want to get back to it, and you want to work on it type of deal, which at the same time it is fun. It may not be the best comparison, because I don't think anybody has died from designing board games.

Patrick: Right. Yes.

Julio: But you get what I'm going with here.

What is a Resource You'd Recommend to New Game Designers?

Patrick: Yes. Makes a lot of sense. So we're nearing the end here, and I love asking people these last three questions. They're all the same for everyone, and I love to know– Especially since you're new-ish to the board game world, what is a resource that you would recommend to another indie game designer?

Julio: There are so many. Because for a new game designer, one of the things I did was listen to podcasts. Your podcast app would be the best one. Just your podcast, I really enjoy your podcast, especially because you have a lot of people that are really new to the industry.

Julio: I've heard a lot about a lot of people that I had never heard in any other podcast, and then you've got the Board Game Business Podcast which talks about the business side of board games. Then you've got the Board Game Design Lab, which has more amateur designers on it, and then you've got the Cardboard Herald which talks news as well. Then you've got the board games insider which talks more about what's inside the board game industry as a publisher point of view. There's so many podcasts out there so that your podcast app is the best resource to learn and get as much information that you can. Learn from other people's mistakes.

What's the Best Money You've Spent?

Patrick: Love it. The other question is, what is the best money you've spent as a game designer? Because the setup for this is always “I'm a frugal person,” so I know if I don't have to spend money I won't. What is something that is absolutely worth every dollar you put into it?

Julio: One of the instruments that I bought early on and I'm still using the same one, I want to upgrade, but it's a [Digiteen] paper cutter. That has been so useful, and I use it every time because if I'm cutting a card or paper I always use that and there are so many good ones. You can cut multiple pieces of paper or card stock, but a paper cutter is definitely super useful if you're doing cards. If you're doing cardboard and you've got Exacto knives and a cutting mat. Then you've got– If you're doing wood then a Dremel tool or drill. I'm listing a couple there, but it's depending on the material there.

Patrick: Love it. It's funny, I've heard the paper cutter several times. That is something that people– Because it's a tedious task that people don't want to do, and I find it amusing but it makes 100% sense.

Julio: Yeah. It's a $20 dollar piece of equipment that I've used for two years now.

What Does Success Look Like?

Patrick: That's great. Then you've signed a handful of games, like a half dozen, what does success in the board game world look like to you?

Julio: At this point, I think success is more like a direction instead of a destination. Because if you say your success is to sign a game, then you sign the game. So what's next? What would make me happy in a specific point in time, what I really want to continue doing is just designing games. That's what makes me the most happy, and I don't really want to do this full time, I want to keep designing board games and have fun doing it. Meeting people and having fun, that's just what's already happening.

Overrated / Underrated Game

Patrick: Fantastic. Yeah, you're doing it. I like to end with a game called Overrated/Underrated. I believe you've heard of it?

Julio: Yes, sir.

Patrick: Excellent. So I'm going to give you a word or phrase, and you need to tell me if it is overrated or underrated. So, if I said– Let's see. What example do I want to give today? I'm trying to think of something about North Carolina, and I sadly know nothing about North Carolina. If I said, “North Carolina, Overrated/Underrated?” You would say, “Underrated. It's the best state ever.” Something like that.

Julio: Yeah, exactly.

Patrick: So, publisher speed dating events. Overrated or underrated?

Julio: I think they may be a little overrated. I only went to– This is the only publisher speed dating event that I've gone to at Origins, and I thought it was OK. I see the only usefulness would be meeting a lot of publishers at one point, but I think normal publisher pitching is best.

Patrick: Good to know. I'm going to say the food court at Origins, and by that I mean the public market that's one or two blocks away where there's all those little restaurants inside of it. Hopefully, you went there.

Julio: Yeah, I've gone. I didn't go this year, but I think it's still a little overrated. OK? Yeah, I see what you're saying, but listen. If it's during Origins, it's super overrated, because there's no space to sit, it's horrible to be there, you're bumping shoulders with everybody. But I think outside of Origins it would be definitely underrated, but the food is really good. I'll give you that.

Patrick: I dig that answer I want to go with app versions of games that are already on tabletop, so like Carcassonne has an app, Agricola has an app, Pandemic has an app. Just the app version of board games, are those overrated or underrated?

Julio: I would say underrated, but a different app. I like how some games now are using apps as part of the board game, merging the digital and the physical together. More games should do stuff like that, instead of just making the game digital.

Patrick: Cool. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. The last one, Jeni's Ice Cream in Columbus, Ohio. Overrated or underrated?

Julio: I have not eaten Jeni's Ice Cream. Yeah, I know. It's crazy. It's like, I go to Columbus for just playing games and pitching.

Patrick: You do eat some food while you're at Origins, right?

Julio: Yeah. But I have not eaten– But I would say still, I would say “Underrated” because ice cream, I heard that one is awesome. Ice cream is just awesome in general. So, underrated.

Wrap Up

Patrick: Awesome. Julio, thank you so much for being on the show.

Julio: Thank you so much for having me, Patrick. It was a lot of fun.

Patrick: Where can people find you online?

Julio: I'm on Twitter a lot. That's where I share what I'm working on and all that other stuff, I'm @junazaru. I'm also part of the Game Designers of North Carolina, they have a podcast, and they have a great group of designers that– Big shout out to them. They've been a big part of this whole journey in my learning experiences as a designer.

Patrick: Awesome. Listeners, if you like this podcast, please leave us a review on iTunes. If you leave a review, Julio said he would figure out how to use the box for your prototype. His trademark.

Julio: Yeah, sure.

Patrick: I'm still looking for more feedback from listeners about what you want to hear on the show, so if you like certain types of content, please fill out the survey at IndieBoardGameDesigners.com/survey. It will redirect you to the right page because guess what? If you tell me what you like, I will make more of it. If you could fill that out, it'd be great. You can visit the site at IndieBoardGameDesigners.com. You can follow me on Twitter, and I am @bftrick. That is all I've got, everyone. Thank you so much. Until next time, happy designing. Bye-bye.

Julio: Bye.