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#82 – Christopher Wiley

Patrick Rauland: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Indie Board Game Designers podcast, where I sit down with a different independent game designer every single week, and we talk about their experience in game design and the lessons they've learned along the way. My name is Patrick Rauland, and today I'll be talking to Christopher Wiley, who designed a ton of prototypes which are available on his website or through print and play, or through The Game Crafter. Some of them, there's a lot–

Christopher, welcome to the show.

Christopher Wiley: Thanks, Patrick. I'm so excited to be on the show today.


Patrick: Yeah. I've done a little bit of research, and we had an e-mail introduction from a mutual friend, but the audience obviously doesn't have that, so I want to give them context. I like to start with a lightning round game, are you ready?

Christopher: I think I am. Go ahead, take a shot.

Patrick: Excellent. What is a game you play every single time with someone at a convention?

Christopher: This is a tricky one because I haven't been to many conventions. I've just started going to conventions locally. I've played a couple of my games with people, but in terms of a game that's already out there, I don't have one that's a standard for me yet.

Patrick: Not even in a game group? Just a game that if people say, “Patrick. Please play this game.” You're like, “Yes. I'm in.”

Christopher: No. Again, it's been a– I play with friends of mine occasionally, but it's been hard to get a consistent group together for me lately. Aside from the things that I'm bringing to try to show people, I don't know if I have a single game that I can say I consistently play.

Patrick: All right, good to know. What is your favorite print and play game? Yours or someone else's.

Christopher: I have one print and play which I've put together called Medusa's Temple, which I designed for my daughter's robotics club to try to teach them a little bit of game programming. I don't know if it's very successful, but I enjoyed making it, and I enjoyed playing it. There's one other print and play that I had printed out called Bitten which we did try a couple play-throughs of, which I found interesting.

Patrick: Awesome. Very cool. When did you make Medusa's Temple?

Christopher: That would have been last year, when she was in fifth grade they had a robotics team they put together, and we had done– We were waiting for the computers to actually come so we could actually do the programming, so we had to come up with some side projects to keep them motivated and try to introduce the basics of programming. I thought a programmed movement game on paper, and pencil thing might work well.

Patrick: Awesome. Very cool, I like that it's something you can do while you wait. That's a pretty cool aspect.

Christopher: Yeah, exactly. Waiting for the computers to come, so let's do something else that still gets in the basic ideas.

Patrick: Dig it. What is your favorite summer activity?

Christopher: I've gotten good at floating in a tube, so I'm looking forward to doing a lot of that this year.

Patrick: I have to take a detour here because this now intersects with my life. So I used to live in Wisconsin, and when we did tubing, it would be like a two-hour thing, and you'd bring the cooler with you down the river in its own inner tube or whatever. I'm here in Colorado, and people are like, “There's a 15-minute tube ride. You do it as many times as you like.” That's foreign to me.

Christopher: Yeah, the short term?

Patrick: Do you like to do 15-minute tubes or two-hour tubes?

Christopher: We have a little place on the lake, that the lake doesn't really go anywhere very fast, so you keep yourself in one position, and if you have to float back to shore to get another drink then you do that.

How Did You Get Into Board Games & Board Game Design?

Patrick: That sounds fantastic. Love it. All right, so first real question. How did you get into board games and board game design?

Christopher: I think I started the same way a lot of people do. When I was a kid, it was Monopoly, Life, Risk. I don't know how many times my dad cheated at Life while we played. He would hide $100,000 dollar bills under the couch, which would drive us crazy. But we started playing those basic games when I was in middle school. I remember we used to make pencil and paper versions of arcade games where you would scratch a line. You're playing Alien– What is it called? Space Invaders. You'd make up this Space Invaders game, and you'd scratch a line with the pencil, that was your shot trying to take the space invaders out. Or maze games, or something. Anything we could pretty much burglarize graph paper for from the closet, that was a good idea.

Then we did a couple other pen and paper things at that point. We moved into playing a lot of Dungeons and Dragons and middle school, and I think my first– Aside from those my first foray into designing was when we were in maybe eighth grade, I think it was. I designed a Transformers roleplaying game which we played through once and realized that it was a complicated ruleset. So we defaulted back to the Dungeons and Dragons and stuff that was already out there and established.

Then there was, aside from the Dungeons and Dragons through college, there was a big break for me with board games themselves, and I finally came back to them probably 11-12 years ago. I think when they started getting big again just at the beginning, I think my first big purchase to get back into it was Mansions of Madness: First Edition. That experience was satisfying and also unsatisfying at the same time. I think that's what drove me to design my first game, which was Dark Places, which is a Lovecraftian mythos-based game.

Patrick: Awesome. So to be clear there, it sounds like you enjoyed Mansions of Madness, but you saw areas for improvement? Is that what you mean by “Enjoyed it and didn't enjoy it?”

Christopher: Yeah, the gameplay was great. We had a blast with the group that we were playing with. I think the one thing that threw me off was the ending, I was the game master and all of a sudden it just ended, and I won, and I was like “Wait. How did I win?” It was either I missed something, or we were having so much fun we weren't even paying attention to the rules or the length of the game or how it's supposed to wrap itself up, and it just wrapped up, and it was over, and I was like “That's interesting. There feels like there could be more of a story there.” That's what generated “Let me look into this.” I was a big fan of reading Lovecraft, and I wanted that experience of one of Lovecraft's tales in a game, a lot of narrative, and I felt like that narrative got cut off and could have just gone on a little bit longer to wrap that ending up.

Patrick: I love it. That's a cool– I like when people want to improve an existing game, it's a cool– Or are inspired by an existing game.

Christopher: Yeah, again, it was the work put into that game was impressive, and it was enjoyable while we were playing it. It just was missing something for me personally, and I don't fault the game necessarily for that, I think a lot of games that I come to I don't try to improve on them in my head I take them at face value and play them. If it's enjoyable, then it's enjoyable, and I like it. If it's not enjoyable, it's not a game for me, and I think I design similarly to that. I know my games are not going to hit everybody the same way, there's way too much of an audience out there, so you're going to hit some people and you're not going to hit other people.

What Does Your Process Look Like?

Patrick: Got it. Good to know. I'm looking at your site, and there are dozens of games on your site, many of which– Some of them link to print and play, but many of which link to a nice product page on The Game Crafter and I see a lot of those games have badges for sails, like your red sail whatever, your green–

Christopher: Right. There's a red stone sail badge or something. I don't know them by heart, all of those. But yeah we've gotten a few of those, not to part the veil too much but some of that is due to us ordering some on our own and giving them as gifts and taking them to conventions. I do have stock that I take with me to conventions, and I think that they don't disseminate who's buying the games. I get all the credit for the games that I buy, but then we do move those on. There are those copies of those games going out into the world in some way.

Patrick: Right. Regardless if you're buying them and then selling them to someone else, people are still buying your game. I guess my question for you is putting these games on The Game Crafter the end of the process, or do you want to do more? Because you have so many prototypes. I don't want to say, “Prototypes.” You have so many games that are at that Game Crafter stage like they're done with art and they're ready to be bought, and that's where they're at. Are you happy with that? Do you want to go farther?

Christopher: At the moment that's what my goal is right now in designing the games, is to get them to that level where– Because The Game Crafter will give you a nice prototype to put in front of people. That's the real benefit of going that route. Certainly, it's price prohibitive, because it's so expensive to do one-off games as a print on demand service like they do. You're not going to get a discount price basically because you can't get bulk very easily through them, so it's not the same as showing out the money to do a big print order and get 5,000 copies of the games and then market those, and you're able to get a little bit more of a profit off of those. I haven't been in a position to financially put a big lump sum of money behind anything or to do a Kickstarter. I haven't made that jump yet either, in terms of looking into running a Kickstarter and hopefully getting a successful Kickstarter. It's something– It's an aspect to the design process I haven't looked into yet. As of right now, The Game Crafter is the furthest rest stop on the highway that I'm shooting for right now because again it does give me a nice looking prototype copy or saleable copy that I can take to conventions or game nights or whatever and put in front of people.

What Type of Game Designer Are You?

Patrick: Let me ask you a question in a different way. Some people want the experience of running a Kickstarter, and that's me. Some people want to be a publishing company, and they want to publish their games and other people's games. Some people like my friend who just got back from Origins, he just signed a game with a publisher, and some people will want to do that. They have a bunch of prototypes and sell sheets and the pitch publishers all the time. I think some people want to make the game and then they're happy with it when it's made, even if it doesn't go into wider distribution. Which one of those four buckets do you think you most fit under?

Christopher: Right. Probably the latter, probably where I want to get the game looking to a certain point where I'm happy with it, and then I'm able to share it with people, and it looks like a “Finished product.” Which it is basically, but you're able to take it and present it as a finished product. Again, I didn't– I haven't gone to that next step of that financial risk and/or investment. I'm happy with where things have been going right now, and I do look at my catalog of games like a portfolio. So I'm building myself a portfolio of game designs that I've come up with, and I don't know what is coming up in the future. Maybe I will push one further, and maybe I'll find the one that seems to have a lot wider audience or fan base, that then maybe we do make the investment on that one. Or maybe I catch the eye of somebody out there later on and collaborate with somebody working at a company doing this, and I'm not sure yet because I'm at this very transitional period with it right now.

Patrick: I just wanted to give you kudos on– I think there's an idea that you have to get your game published for you to be a “Real” game designer and I was excited to have you on the show because I think you push back against that a little bit. Like, “This game is done. If someone wants to publish it, great. But it's done, and it's available, I get to play with my friends, and I'm happy with that.” I think in addition to highlighting people who have crazy Kickstarters and people who signed to the super fancy publisher, I think I also want to highlight people who do this just for the love of it and stop there. I just wanted to give you kudos for that before we move on.

Christopher: Thank you, Patrick, very much. I appreciate that because I think it is how I am approaching it right now. Each game is like a little bit different of a challenge too for me, I try not to go back to mechanisms or themes or anything that I've already used, and I try to push forward and try to come up with a different challenge for myself each time. Then if I can get it to a successful point, then I feel good about that fact, that I've been able to take another concept– A different take on a game and push it to a point where it works, and it's enjoyable. That's a big part for me, is to sit down and whatever game it is, if the person across from me or the people that I see playing it are smiling and having a good time– That's the payoff.

Why Do You Write About Your Games?

Patrick: Fantastic. I did want to talk a little bit more because when I was doing some research I found your website and there's so much there. You write up a couple paragraphs and add photos for each game on your site. It's not just like, “Here's the name of four games that I've played.” But each game has its own– It looks like most, if not each game, has its own page and photo gallery, slideshows, the genesis, the specs, the game and then several paragraphs on the gameplay. This is a lot more work than I do. How about that? I'll just put it that way. So, why do you–? Is this part of your process? Is writing up your games and coming up with the backstory and the specs and how the gameplay is like, is that part of your process, or is this done for some other reason?

Christopher: Initially back, when we first started putting my website together, we did that when I had the first four games completed. We went through SquareSpace and did a website. When I was laying out the pages, I left room, and I did a pretty deep dive into the background of those games, the first few that I had done. Then things– That part of it languished a little bit, the website part of it. I concentrated on the designs and making the prototypes and pushing things towards Game Crafter, and I got a random e-mail last year I think it was, this guy Gary just randomly found my site, and he reached out. He was like, “I see you've got one game published, but you have these other ideas. What's going on?”

Christopher: I didn't have an answer. I was like, “I think I just didn't do that for the other– I didn't push these other ones, or whatever it was.” It made me think, and I need to get these ideas out there. I need to have some more information to go with these. I spent probably two or three weeks down in my studio, and set up photo lights and shot photos and everything, and redid photos of the older games because the components had been updated. I spent a good amount of time shooting stuff and putting it up and then it came up with a short blurb for everything.

Christopher: This was by the end of last year/the beginning of this year, moving into this year with the knowledge that I was going to start to try and do some local conventions. To have that back end backup of the website for people to reference after the fact of meeting me and potentially playing a game or two. It became a whole other aspect of the design process for me at that point, and I'm hoping to continue with that once I get things. If I improve– If I change the designs on something I want to re-document it and get it back up there, because I think it's important to have the latest iteration available for people to look at.

Patrick: Yeah, I dig it. It just sounds like it came from someone who was, “just curious what you're working on”?

Christopher: Yeah. Basically, yeah it did. It went that way, and he actually ended up buying a copy of Dungeons Squared game that I have for sale on The Game Crafter, and it was like “This guy–” It was a little bit of a question, but it felt like it was a little bit of curiosity and a little bit of belief in me as a designer. I was like, “I've got to pay this back.” I felt like giving each of these prototypes they're due, it felt like a way to pay back the universe in a way for this individual's interest.

Patrick: Yeah, I like it. That's cool. I should probably do something like this, where I can catalogue everything and– I don't know, in my case I write up the occasional post about games and then I can link all the relevant posts or something like that. But I've never– This to me seems like work, and I'm happy you're putting in the work, but I haven't quite found the time for myself. But it's cool that you do it.

Christopher: Yeah. It's a commitment, but I'll say the biggest step is getting set up I think. It was grabbing some photo lights and finding a space and laying down some fabric and finding my little iPhone tripod, and so it doesn't have to be over the top equipment. That was all done with some photo lights and an iPhone. But once you set up and you start the first one, it just goes into the second one and into the third one, and then you roll through it because you get into a pattern. But certainly, that first step, with that and just about anything, is the hardest step. Changing that mindset to tackle a new challenge.

How Do You Find Playtesters?

Patrick: I dig it. Before the show you mentioned having a hard time finding playtesters, maybe you can talk a little bit about why, and then also how you're working around that.

Christopher: Yeah. I'm moving out of a role as a stay at home parent and moving forward with whatever comes next. The game design has been a big part of my life for the last 10 years, and I'm looking at ways of pursuing that. But the trick is just making that transition. For me personally, I took on that role of staying home apparently very seriously, and my kids are getting old enough now that I do have a little more leeway and a little more bandwidth to look at what I want to do moving forward. But I've been remiss in stacking the deck too hard, and making too many commitments time-wise I think, is where I'm coming from. I like to keep– I don't want to be too stressed out, I want to make sure there's still bandwidth for me for soccer practices and driving different people to friend's houses and things like that.

Christopher: I've definitely put some of that game design stuff on the back burner behind my role as the stay at home parent, and that includes finding playtest groups. I've been doing my best to attend a local design meeting once a month, so I have– At least I'm starting to get my stuff in front of other designers and work through it from that perspective. But it's again, and there's also that aspect of it that it's hard to get a group of people together sometimes. Just the plain fact of it, and because I've been in the stay at home parent role and we made friends way back as parents, they weren't necessarily gamers. I have parent friends but not a lot of pool of game friends. So I need to branch out and make a whole new pool of friends to get into this playtest mode.

What Does a Regular Playtest Group Do For Your Games?

Patrick: No, that makes a lot of sense to me. I've talked a lot about my own playgroup, but I didn't realize that you have like a once a month meetup. It sounds like you've been doing this a while, so I'm guessing– Was there a time before you went to this meetup, and then a time since you've been going to this meetup? What has the difference been for your prototypes?

Christopher: Yes, there definitely has been a before and an after. I've only attended the meetings– This group that I'm going to see now meets about a half an hour from my house, and I've gone probably around a half a dozen times maybe. It's been interesting to go to this group because we all think differently, so it's interesting to be around other designers because they think differently than I do.

Christopher: Sometimes I don't feel like one of the smartest guys in the room, and I'll tell you that. Because there are some people that their brains work a lot differently than mine do. Sometimes they put stuff in front of me, and I've just been like, “How do I play this?” It does make me– It makes me think hard about the decisions that I'm making on my games, I think it makes me try to elevate my game a little bit.

Christopher: Prior to that and still continuing through to now, I was designing primarily for myself. I would say “Someday–” There'd be times where I'm like, “I feel like I need a new game in my collection.” I'd look around and wouldn't find anything that fit the bill. So I decided I'd make something. I'm like, “I want a game that's like this. I'm just going to make a prototype that does that.” So I don't know if this is answering the question or if I'm just rambling at this point, but it has changed things, and I think it's made me look at things a little more critically and try to elevate my design a little bit to suit a wider audience, rather than just to suit my desires at the moment.

Patrick: Sure, yeah. It's very different. I think if you play with either just yourself a lot or with a certain small group of people a lot, I think you tend to make games just for that tiny group. I think if you attend a wider designer meetup where there's always people changing in and out, I think it forces you to think about a wider audience.

Christopher: Yeah. Or even just like I said, the people at the meeting that I go to now are designing in a different space than I'm designing, and it pushes me to try to design something in that space that maybe I'm not as comfortable with.

Patrick: Yeah. I like that. If I remember correctly, have you maybe 25 games?

Christopher: I think it's around that.

Patrick: Yeah, I think I saw somewhere on your site it's like 25.

Christopher: It's 25, maybe 26 because I've got something new in the cooker right now.

What Resource Would You Recommend to a New Game Designer?

Patrick: You've made 25 going on 26 games, what is a resource that you'd recommend to someone who is making their first game?

Christopher: When I was first getting back into game design, I remember I sat, and I watched through Tom Vassals Top 100 games from three years running.

Christopher: This was me coming into board gaming period, and it opened my eyes to what was out there because I hadn't been in touch with the game community for a number of years. That was eye-opening to me just as a player starting to get back into it, in terms of a designer I think there's really good podcasts like this one. There's the stuff on the dice tower, and there's a lot of reviewers out there. I think watching– If you can't– I have a hard time getting to playing a lot of games, but I do watch, and I listen to a lot of reviews. I think that can not necessarily be a substitute to that, but I think it's a good resource to get enough information. You want to get information as a designer so that you're A) not designing the same game again as someone else may have made, but B0 you want to start building that internal library of both language and mechanisms and themes, and that kind of stuff I think is really important.

Patrick: Yeah. What I'm hearing is “Pay attention to all the games that are coming out, pay attention to reviewers, and top 10 lists, top 100 lists. Stuff like that, right?

Christopher: Yeah. You get to– What's good about the– [Inaudible], it's about being consistent about watching specific reviewers. What I find is you start to understand what they like, and then you can decide if that's what you like. So then if you watch a review and they rate a game high, and you know you like the same stuff as they do, that might be a good thing to look at. If they rate things low and you like what they– It starts to give you a scale on what you like versus what the community likes. That can help, I think, inform the games that you're designing from a personal standpoint and also the audience that you're trying to reach.

Patrick: Yeah. Dig it.

Christopher: For the consistency of information can help to clarify things for yourself. Then like nuts and bolts wise, the best thing that I've done is consistently keep using a Macintosh Apple computer. Illustrator, stick with the same tools, and you get a proficiency with those same tools if you continue to stick with them.

Patrick: Yeah. I have a web development and web design background and I am hooked on Macs, because I've been using these applications for so many years that even if I could go back to a Windows I just wouldn't want to because I've learned so many like Mac-specific tools that are really good at what they do. So, I hear you there.

Christopher: I hope that answers the question to some degree.

What's The Best Money You've Spent?

Patrick: Yeah. I'd also like to know what is the best money you've spent having made so many games?

Christopher: There's good money to be spent in getting good prototypes. I do a lot of work and purchasing from like we've mentioned, The Game Crafter. Because they do give you a nice product at the end, but it's also– There's a learning curve to it as well. You make mistakes sometimes, and you order, but you're only ordering one copy. So there's a mistake on one copy rather than ordering a bulk order, and you've made a mistake on five thousand copies.

Christopher: That's been helpful, and I think that the first couple of games that I pushed through the Game Crafter you get them back and you're like “I didn't even think of that happening.” There's those little lessons in spending that little bit of money to go through that process. Again, I haven't taken it to the next step of going to a place in China or a larger production company in the States, but I really feel like that step of “Finishing something” to that level and spending that little bit of money and getting that one copy and looking it over with a critical eye is money well spent.

Patrick: I 100% agree. Some of the earliest versions of Fry Thief, I had some card that had a typo in it, and I think I brought it to a board game– A ProtoSpiel or something, a board game testing event. People could not stop talking about the typo. “I know the typo is there, and please give me feedback on anything but the typo.” But people kept noticing it like, “Patrick, did you know you did this?” “Yes, I know.” But what's interesting is I can't imagine making a typo in a big game, or a print run. Does that make sense? Having a typo in a prototype that I used over a weekend was miserable, and every single person pointed it out to me if that was in your finished game people would never stop talking about it on BGG or whatever. So I 100% agree, you want to do several prototypes through The Game Crafter.

Christopher: Or whatever service, even if you're printing at home. Even just that, invest in those supplies or whatever it is you need to make a close to final prototype. Look it over and read it over and– You spell the wrong word right, spellcheck is not going to find it. Because it's going to be spelled correctly, but it's not the right word. So you need to spend that little bit of money and time to get that experience.

What Does Success Look Like?

Patrick: Totally agree. I think I got a hint of this from earlier in the interview, but what does success in the board game world look like to you? What is on the horizon for you? What is the next peak you want to climb?

Christopher: That's a broad question. I know you ask this every time, it seems like. I think for me there's a couple levels of success. One level of success would be finding the audience. I think we all want to find the audience for what we've created. Like I said, there's so many people out there, some people are going to like what you make, and some people are not going to like what you make. I think there's a little bit of a success every time you find somebody that is on that same wavelength and likes what you create.

Christopher: The next level of success that I'm looking forward to in this transitional period is maybe finding something that becomes financially successful. It's not the be-all-end-all, but having done this for the last 11 almost 12 years and enjoying what I've done, I think it would be fantastic to be able to find a way to monetize any aspect of this. Whether it's the actual games themselves or me doing freelance work for other game designers, or partnering up with somebody and working on something together that then with the combined resources we could push through as a bigger project. I'm certainly not– I wouldn't overlook something, an opportunity like those as well.

Overrated / Underrated

Patrick: Love it. You know how I end my show then, with Overrated/Underrated.

Christopher: Oh yeah.

Patrick: Great. I'm going to give you a word or phrase, and you just need to tell me if you think it is overrated or underrated. If I said peanut butter and jelly, you would say, “Clearly it's underrated, it is the best sandwich of all time.” Cool?

Christopher: Absolutely. But only if you put lettuce on it.

Patrick: Lettuce on PB&J?

Christopher: Yeah, dude.

Patrick: I don't know if I've ever done this before, but I think I have to fire my guest.

Christopher: PB&J with lettuce.

Patrick: I'm stunned and flabbergasted, and I don't know what to do, but I will ask you the questions. Print and play games as a genre, are they overrated or underrated?

Christopher: I think I'd have to say I think they're underrated. I think I underrate them myself, which is probably a bad thing to do. But I think there's a lot of– There's a lot there that you can do to get something out to a whole lot of people.

Patrick: That makes a lot of sense. What about–? I saw you have a game about reading Nordic runes. So, how about– I kind of want to go with– Let me generalize this a little bit. Reading runes for prophecy, or for whatever you want to call it. Seeing the future, like a zodiac sign thing. Overrated/underrated?

Christopher: I think seeing the future through runes and reading is a little overrated. I use the runes a lot, and I tend to use them just as “How'd the day go?” That's my experience with them. I have them on my bedside table, and if I've had a weird day, I'll draw a rune and take a little wisdom from the reading.

Patrick: Awesome. When you say “Draw a rune,” is that your deck of rune cards? Or a physical token that's like a rune?

Christopher: I'll use either one. I have the rune cards, but I have a set of runes that I've had since I was probably 10 years old, so I go to those a lot because they're familiar and they've been around for a long time.

Patrick: Very cool. I also see– If you've been listening to the show for a while you know I like Warhammer 40,000. I see you have a game based off of Space Hulk, which is going through– To me, I think I'd call it a sci-fi dungeon crawler. I'm going to say sci-fi dungeon crawlers, overrated/underrated?

Christopher: Probably underrated right now, because I just– The Warhammer 40,000. I think that is such a fantastic mythology. I have just been reading the Horus Heresy books, and they are just out of control.

Patrick: What book are you up to?

Christopher: Oh, God. 13 or 14, or something?

Patrick: Nice. I think I took a break at like 18 or 19.

Christopher: Yeah, they do get heavy. But I love those, I love sci-fi dungeon crawlers, and I don't think– It's hard because dungeon crawlers, there's a lot of them out there right now, but I think the sci-fi ones need a little push.

Patrick: Makes sense. Last one. Game design podcasts, excluding this one. Overrated or underrated?

Christopher: I think they're underrated. I think there's a lot of good information out there that you can get from the podcasts. I'm not sure– I don't know from personal experience if people are really using them and listening to them as closely and as much as they could to get that information.

Patrick: Yeah, I think there's a lot more hidden information out there. Christopher, thank you so much for being on the show.

Christopher: Patrick, thank you so much for having me. I've thoroughly enjoyed this.

Wrap Up

Patrick: Where can people find you online?

Christopher: I've got a website, I'm also on Instagram, Rings True Games. That's where I am mostly, I do have a Facebook page as well, but a lot of that feeds from the Instagram.

Patrick: Thank you again. Listeners, if you like this podcast, please leave us a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you leave a review, Christopher will meet up with you at a Con and bring all 25 going on 26 of his games. You could play an entire convention of just Christopher's games. That's pretty epic.

I want to also mention two personal updates. Number one, I'm still looking for more interest in the survey. This survey will tell me what content you want on the show. If you want more interviews, if you want more bonus episodes, if you want more game design journey things. Let me know, and there's a short survey. It's

The more information you give me in what shows you like, the more of those shows I will make. So, go ahead and please fill that out.

Then I am going to Gen Con, which is like a month and a bit from now. No, it's not even a month and a bit–It's like a couple weeks from now. Yeah, it's less than a month from now. But I will be going to Gen Con, and I will be volunteering at a booth from, I believe it's a Adi and Liz from episode number five, they have a game called Someone Has Died. I'll be going there and demo-ing the game and showing how to play it, so stop by say hi to me or tweet me, and we'll try to meet up at the Con.

Lastly, you can visit the site at You can follow me on Twitter, and I am @bftrick. That is all for me. Until next time everyone, happy designing. Bye-bye.

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