Patrick Rauland: Hello everyone, and welcome to Indie Board Game Designers podcast where I sit down with a different independent game designer every single week to talk about their experience in game design, and what they've learned along the way. My name is Patrick Rauland and today I'm going to be talking with Jackson Pope, who is both a game designer, and I'm going to say game maker or game crafter, as in someone who actually likes making the components for games, which we are definitely going to talk about. He's the publisher behind four different games, and he's working on FlickFleet, which should be on Kickstarter by the time you hear this. Jackson, welcome to the show.
Patrick Rauland: I've recently changed my intro, and now I'd like to ask … There's a little game. Just to give you an idea of who we're talking to here, so I'm just going to ask you a couple of quick questions to get started. If I met you at a convention, what is a game that you would … If I said, “Hey, random person, do you want to play this game with me,” and you would say?
Patrick Rauland: All right. Love it. All right, good. Good to know. What is your favorite component-
Patrick Rauland: I haven't done the Cleopatra one, but I actually just a couple months ago played the Niagara one. It is cool. Yeah, the box is like a thing you elevate the river on.
Jackson Pope: It's just, it's really nicely done.
Patrick Rauland: Cool. Last one, if you had to choose one of the following websites to say, that means one, would you choose BoardGameGeek or-
Jackson Pope: I'm going to have to go BoardGameGeek, which is crazy because I'm just about to bring a game to Kickstarter. But I use BoardGameGeek to track all my plays. I've never used … I don't really back a lot of kickstarters. I've only backed five or six. As yet, I've never kickstarted a game. Under advisement, I'm going to have to go BoardGameGeek.
Why Do You Like Making Hang Crafting Components?
Patrick Rauland: Very cool. Okay. Those are the were the little intro questions. Tell us a little bit about game crafting. Let me just … Let me give you a little background. The reason I reached out to you is because someone on a previous episode said, “You need to talk to this guy. He makes all these components.” Then I looked up your Twitter feed, which is super active by the way, and you can see all the stuff that you're working on, and how you're like doing this and doing that. Then you go to your website, and you can see this is all hand-crafted, and it's really cool. I guess tell us, why do you like … Yeah, well why do you like making all the components?
Jackson Pope: It must have been 2004 I think. No, maybe 2002. I had been making bits of computer games before then, because I'm a software developer by training and hobby. I liked the idea that I could make a board game from scratch, and make the whole thing to the point where there was something you could sell. That idea was a game that ended up being called Border Reivers. In 2006, I decided I was going to make a few copies and sell them.
Jackson Pope: I had no idea how many copies I could make or sell, so I decided to make 100. If you go to any manufacturer, they're minimal order is like 1,000 or 1,500. You say, “I'd like to make 100,” they just laugh at you. But I worked out that if I made 100, and I did almost all the work myself by hand, I could not only do it affordably, I could actually make a small profit on it, which would then give me some money to invest in making another game.
Jackson Pope: Over the course of a year, I made 100 copies of that game by hand. I sold them around the world. I sold actually all of them. Made a small profit. From there, I went on to make 300 copies of another game, and then I got back into making games by hand. Last year, yeah, last year, after a period when I'd been professionally manufacturing games, and then shutting down my first board game publishing company after losing a chunk of money, and not doing it for a few years, and then deciding, “You know what? I was really bad at it. Let's do it again,” because some people never learn.
Do You Like Crafting?
Patrick Rauland: Is crafting games, is that a thing you like to do because you like to do, or was it only a means to an end, just a way to accomplish your goals of getting a game out?
Jackson Pope: There are bits of it which I really like doing it. There are bits of it which are a massive pain. It's a great feeling. It's one of those tasks where you've got to concentrate, but you don't have to think particularly hard. You end up sort of in a flow state where you're concentrating and doing stuff. But at the same time, your brain is free to wander a bit. You can't wander too far, because then you'll start making mistakes, but you can think, you can listen to music and do things like that.
Jackson Pope: But then there are bits which are awful. For my first game, I had 72 tiles that were made from two ml thick gray board. I guess that's maybe a 1/16 of an inch. Something like that. I made 100 games, so that's 7,200 of those tiles. I was cutting them out of gray board using a steel ruler and an X-Acto knife, so that was joyous.
Would You Recommend Crafting to a New Designer?
Patrick Rauland: Yeah. Maybe a question … I actually normally tell people this ahead of time, but I forgot. Most of the people that listen to this are aspiring game designers. If you're an aspiring game designer, when would you recommend hand-making, hand-crafting a game, and when would you say, “Definitely do not hand-craft this. Go to a professional publisher.” Or not a professional, but go to a manufacturer and get it-
Jackson Pope: If you think it's a fairly niche game, then you could go down the hand-crafting route. The game I'm working … The game I'm currently hand-crafting is a semi-cooperative game about scientists in inverted commas trying to cure the zombie apocalypse using alternative medicine, such as healing crystals and homeopathy. I'm guessing that finding 2,000 or 3,000 people who get excited about semi-cooperative games with such a niche theme might be hard work, whereas I'm pretty sure that I can sell the 200 that I'm making of it. That's one reason. But to be honest, the main reason, if you like making games, if you like crafting games, then you should consider it.
Jackson Pope: If you don't like crafting games, and when you're designing a game, you end up crafting prototype after prototype after prototype, tweaking things as you go along. You should know by the time that you think the game is ready to make it, whether or not you enjoy the crafting, or whether it's a chore that you have to get out of the way to get to the point where you can play test, and either take it to Kickstarter or hawk it to a publisher.
How Did You Sell Your First Games?
Patrick Rauland: Earlier I mentioned your first game you made 100 copies, and you said … Did you say you traveled? How did you get these … How did you get these 100 copies out there, and get them sold?
Jackson Pope: Quite a few of them via my website, via BoardGameGeek. I went to probably half a dozen conventions that year in the UK. I didn't go to any conventions abroad. At the time, I had no children, and my … She wasn't yet my wife. No, she was. We were married by then. My wife was doing a PhD, so she was incredibly busy. I had lots of free time, hence spending all my evenings crafting games. Yeah, it was mostly through conventions, going to games, clubs, and my website on BoardGameGeek.
How Did You Get People to Your Site?
Patrick Rauland: As someone who … I've just started this podcast, and I actually haven't yet made a website for my own game yet, but it's hard to generate traffic. How did you get people to your site so that they'd actually see the game, and then buy that? Is it your active Twitter presence, or-
Jackson Pope: I was reasonably active on BoardGameGeek back in the day, although less so now. I'm trying to work out … I'm trying to remember what the … I think maybe 50, 60% of them were in-person sales, so either at conventions, or clubs, or through friends and family and stuff like that. The rest would probably be indirectly through people I'd met doing one of those things, or through BoardGameGeek. Just trying to mention my game on every single thread. For the record though, I'm really bad at marketing. If you're asking advice, I'm like the archetypal person not to ask.
Patrick Rauland: I'm actually going to challenge that, because I mean, if you sold 100 games, that's 100 games more than a lot of people see. You obviously sold out, and then you had sold 300 of the next game, so I'm … I'd give yourself some credit is what I mean, I'm trying to say here. Okay. Yeah. Is there something that you've been trying to make, either a … Something in game design, maybe it could also be a component though, something that you're trying to get it to work, but it just hasn't worked out?
What's Something You're Trying to Work On?
Jackson Pope: I ran my first company for five years, and at the end of that, I had … It was technically profitable, but it was … I was losing money every month because of warehousing the games that I'd had professionally manufactured, and I was servicing a bank loan as well. I shut it down at that point. Obviously, I was very disillusioned. I had lost a chunk of money. There was a whole I'm going to say three of four months of, “What on earth was I thinking? I was rubbish at that. I never want to see another board game.” Obviously, that's not true. I never want to make another board game.
Jackson Pope: Then I was driving from my home in Newcastle down to where my family lived in Bristol, which is about 300 miles. I was chatting to my wife and had an idea for another game. I started game designing again. That game is still technically in progress. Was that seven years later? Six or seven years later. It's never quite got to the point where it was ready. It's got close a couple of times, and then I've tweaked things. It started out as a … I wanted to make a game that had a similar sort of feel to Race for the Galaxy, but had a bit more player interaction.
Jackson Pope: My first thought was a deck builder, because I really liked Thunderstone. I set it … It was a sci-fi game set in a steampunk universe. You stared off in like 1900 in one of the world powers in 1900, and then you played over the next 200 years in a steampunk world with steampunk technologies and things like that. But at the same thing, technology was advancing, and you were getting space rockets, and laser weapons, and things were moving on.
Jackson Pope: It started off with just cards. Now it's got a board, and it's got some pieces moving around the board. It's got goals that there … One of the things I really wanted to have in there was these goals that everyone could see, and you could claim one of them if you had enough of a certain resource. Once a certain number of them had been claimed, the game ended and you scored only for the ones that had been claimed. It was like five different scoring tracks as it were, but only the three that were claimed would get you any points. That's never really got to the point where it's a finished game that really works, although still technically it's in progress. I need to make another version of it and try again.
How Do You Know What Ideas to Work On?
Patrick Rauland: As a person who's finished … You've finished other games. What is the difference between … Here's something I think a lot of gamer designers struggle with, is they don't which games to follow through on, and which games to abandon and come back to a year later if they have inspiration. What is the difference between the games that you finished and this game? Why hasn't it finished? What are the signs of a game that can't be finished, and you should work on other things?
Jackson Pope: I always work on the game … I usually work on one, or at most two games at a time, because I've got a full-time job, which involves a reasonable amount of travel, both nationally and internationally. I've got two young kids and a wife, so I've got a busy family life. I don't have a huge amount of time for game design, and I'm spending a reasonable chunk of that at the moment either preparing for a Kickstarter, or literally hand-crafting games.
Jackson Pope: I'm not one of those guys who's got seven projects that they're actively working on, and they're flitting between one to the other. Usually, there's one game that I'm focusing on, and maybe another one that's sort of on the back burner, but in progress. Whichever games seems most exciting at the time is the one that I'm focused on. If I have another idea, and that one seems to be moving faster than the one that I was currently working on, then that will get superseded.
Jackson Pope: There's a feeling when you get to the point where you think the game is good enough. The game will never be perfect, and if you wait until it is, you will never ship it. You got to get the the point where you think, “You know what? The people who are playing this are really enjoying it. People are asking to buy it. Where can I get it? Who can I get it from? Are you taking pre-orders?” When you get to that point, then you start thinking seriously about making it. If another game has sort of leapt ahead of them one that you're currently working on, then that one goes on the back burner for me.
What's The Best Money You Spent?
Patrick Rauland: Got it. Okay. For you, it's just about which game is the hottest? Which game is the one that I want to work on, and you just work on it. Okay. One of the questions I always like to ask people is what is the best money you've ever spent as a game designer? What is something that is absolutely worth every single penny you paid for?
Jackson Pope: My corner rounding tool, which sounds crazy. When I started making Border Reivers, I was going to be making 100 copies of a game that had I'm going to say 50, possibly 60 cards. Each of which obviously had four corners. I wanted the game to look as professional as possible, considering that I'd made it by hand. I wanted to round the corners. I found this tool on the internet that was like 150 pounds that would let you round a pile of corners, a pile of corners that was a centimeters. What's that? Just under half an inch thick in one game.
Jackson Pope: I bought that, and i used it to make Border Reivers, which had, what's that? I'm going to say 20,000 corners. Then I used it to make It's Alive, which I made 300 copies of, and that had 60 cards, so that's another 18,000 corners. No, more than that. Lots of corners. All of my prototypes have used it, and the deck buildings [inaudible 00:15:29] steampunk game I was just talking about, it's got 350 cards. Now I'm making 200 copies of Zombology, which is 180 cards. I've got my money's worth from that. I reckon it's done over 200,000 corners.
Patrick Rauland: That is awesome. I'm pretty sure you're the second person who's recommended a tool like this. Now my question, does this only work on cards? Is it specific for playing cards, or could this work on if you had jumbo-sized cards, or player mats, or something like could you use it on other things as well?
Jackson Pope: You just slot things into it, and there's no sort of back stopper as it were. It doesn't have to be the size of a playing card. It could be much bigger than that. You're rounding one corner at a time. But obviously, up to a centimeter thickness. You could put like 15 or 30 cards in a pile and round all of those in one go for the first corner, and then turn them 90 degrees and do the second corner and so on. You can definitely do things bigger than a playing card. You can do like chip board that you make game boxes out of. I think you can probably get away with doing things like maybe thin metal, and maybe even things like thin plastic as well.
Patrick Rauland: Very cool. It's kind of fascinating when you think about it. 150 pounds is … I can't do a lot of the conversion. I don't know, let's say $180 or something like that. That seems like a lot of money. When you make that many cards, it is … There's the money versus time cost benefit analysis that you do. For you, it came out very positive.
Jackson Pope: I bought it in 2006, and if you were to buy the same thing from the same supplier, it's a different brand, but it looks identical. It's not 75 pounds, so definitely worth it.
What Resources Do You Recommend?
Patrick Rauland: Tell me, maybe for someone who wants to get more into hand-crafting a game, is there a resource out there that you'd recommend to them? Some place to get started to read more to follow up on?
Jackson Pope: I would recommend my blog. Also to Craft Wednesday that I run on Twitter. I think both of those are good places for advice and encouragement.
Patrick Rauland: What is your blog?
Jackson Pope: My blog is creationandplay.blogspot.com.
Jackson Pope: I've been blogging there for on and off 12 years. I'm @Jackson_Pope on Twitter. Every Wednesday, I run Craft Wednesday, which is a community of tabletop gaming relating crafters talking about the projects they've got in progress, lots of which are board game design, but also making prototypes, painting minis, making board game tables, and accessories like dice trays, dice bags, all sorts.
Patrick Rauland: Sorry, just to be clear, that's … Oh, shoot. I just forgot. It was .blogspot.com, not @blogspot.com, right? Yes, okay. Then it's #CraftWednesday, right? Okay, yeah. Just making sure so people don't actually go to the wrong … They're like, “What? This isn't a real website.” By the way, if you do check out either of those, I personally would start with Twitter just because it's so cool. I mean, we are recording this on a Thursday, so I instantly go to your Twitter page, and I just see all of last night's Craft Wednesday tweets. It is so cool to see that.
Jackson Pope: They are the Craft Wednesday highlights from the last nine months I think. I do put one of those out every Thursday morning. It's just highlights of all the things that people sent me, and there's some amazing stuff in there. Really, really cool stuff.
Patrick Rauland: There are some … Yes. I completely agree. There are some very, very cool stuff. I don't know what people are doing with that stuff, but it's very cool. Actually just I want to give you a little bit of some kudos here. One of the things I noticed is you actually ping people like, “Hey, how's this project coming along?” Why do you do that? It seems like you're doing work to get other people to finish their dreams.
Jackson Pope: … at the end of last year. They presented some research about achieving goals. They said basically, if you say, “I'm going to do something,” you have a small chance of actually achieving it. If you write down, “I'm going to achieve that thing,” you have a significantly higher chance of achieving it. If you tell people you're going to achieve that thing, the chance jumps again. If you have somebody who acts as an accountability partner who checks in on how it's going, and holds you responsible for actually achieving your goal, it jumps up to like 90% of the chance of you actually achieving it. That was research that's been done by scientists somewhere. I thought I could act as an accountability partner for these people, and help them … encourage them and help them achieve their goals. That's why I do it.
Patrick Rauland: Okay, that is amazing, right? I think many people would want to have an accountability partner, and to have someone who literally pings you on Twitter and is like, “Yo, where's your prototype at?” That's actually pretty awesome.
Jackson Pope: It's great to see everyone else's progress. You get to watch things unfold over a number of weeks or months. To go from very, very sketchy, rough prototypes up to really polished things. You get to watch some amazing projects unfold. It's really, really cool.
How Are You Preparing for FlickFleet?
Patrick Rauland: Very cool. Okay. I want to talk about one other thing I saw on your Twitter feed is I actually saw you shared a picture of you video taping, video graphing … No, video taping I guess? You don't say video … Recording, there we go. There's the simple word, recording. Pictures of you recording video for your upcoming Kickstarter FlickFleet. Do you just do everything? You run the hashtag, you make a website, you run a publishing company, you make hand-craft games, and you can do Kickstarter videos.
Jackson Pope: He has all the kit, and he has the skills. He has done all the videoing, the recording for us. So far, he's done all the editing, although I have started to look at the editing software and get my head around how it works, so that if I want to do some tweaking of the editing, I can. But it's all been done by a friend of mine. I haven't done any of that yet.
How Do You Make Kickstarter Videos?
Patrick Rauland: That's one of the things I actually want to talk to you about, just because I haven't really talked to anyone about Kickstarter videos, and I'm just … Did you write the … I used to work in an advertising agency a long time ago, and we'd have like storyboards of like first, this scene, then this scene, then this scene. You kind of talk about what happens. Did you kind of script, or have a storyboard, or some other tool to help your friend record this?
Jackson Pope: We did a very rough cut using his phone of me pretending to be me and my co-conspirator, Paul, who's the co-designer of FlickFleet. Sort of just doing some … Moving my hands around like I was doing, the bits of action. We were targeting based on Jamey Stegmaier's advice a minute to two minutes, as short as possible for your Kickstarter overview video. That came out at almost four minutes. I wrote a second script about half an hour before we actually started recording the video for real. We recorded that a couple week ago. One Saturday evening, Paul came up from York where he lives. My mate came over with all his kits, and we spent the evening recording that.
Jackson Pope: Then since then, because I actually work with my mate with the video kit, we've spent a couple of lunch times doing some extra pickup shots. We had an hour last second rough cut of that video, and it's starting to get there. There's still a couple of things that need to go in there, but it's getting close. If you compare it to some of the incredibly polished loads of 3D animation Kickstarter videos out there, like Tiny Epic Zombies or something like that, it's nothing like that. Hopefully, it doesn't look like it's a bloke talking into his laptop webcam. It's nearer to that than the … Yeah.
Patrick Rauland: It's funny how that's evolved, right? If you look at board game kickstarters from even five years ago, a lot of them are just like … You'll even see like the video starts with like him walking … He just turned on the camera. He's like walking to the table. He sits. I'm saying he. The person sits down, and then speaks to the camera of, “Hi. My name is this. I made this game.” That's the video. Do you know what I mean? That was where … It feels like that's where we were five years ago, and the amount of 3D animation as you said in a lot of kickstarters is kind of insane. I have a question, because I'm going to get this stat wrong, but I believe it's about 10 board game kickstarters launch a day. When other publishing companies have the money for the fancy 3D animation, how does your video stand out?
Jackson Pope: I'm hoping the game sells itself. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not very good at marketing. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely the five years ago style of video. We've got some footage of game and play. We've got some footage of Paul and I talking to the camera. Hopefully, the game sells itself. I mean, the game, it's one of those games where Paul and I had the idea of walking around a forest when he came up for a weekend. We went out for a walk with our families, and we had this idea of a space combat dexterity game a bit like X-Wing or something, but it was a dexterity game. You flipped things around. We were really excited about it straightaway. Then sort of sat on it for a few months.
Jackson Pope: Then my brother-in-law was up for the weekend, and I said, “Hey, we've had this idea. Can we try it out?” I got out some MDF food from my daughter's play kitchen. It's like slices of toast that are made out of five ml thick MDF that have been painted up. We got a slice of pepper, and a couple of slices of tomato coming out the right flank, and we got a slice of toast over here. We just played it with that. Scribbling all the sort of the … What's the word? The tracking of the game information, just scribbling them on a piece of paper and a pencil. It was really fun. It was like, “Already, it's really fun. This has real legs.” At which point, obviously, that became my focus.
Jackson Pope: We got a friend of mine to do some laser cutting out of Perspex. We got spaceships that are cut out of five ml thick, which is a fifth of an inch thick Perspex. You're flicking these spaceships around. I mean, a bit like X-Wing, or Star Wars: Armada, or what's the Star Trek one called, Attack Wing? You can either play a scenario where you've got a particular fleet and particular objectives to complete, or you say, “Well, let's play a 40-point game.” You build a fleet that adds up to 40 points. Actually, these little acrylic spaceships.
Jackson Pope: Then you're flicking them around the table, and you're placing dice on top, and flicking dice at your opponent's ships. If the die hits your opponent's ship, then it does damage, and the die result tells you which bit of their ship gets damaged. You're tracking damage to different functionalities of your opponent's ships. You've got fighters that whizz around getting in the way and providing cover. You got shields that you can recharge, and you can do repairs to bits of the ship that are broken. It's just really fun. I'm very excited about it. The people we've played it with have been very excited about it too. Fingers crossed this one will do well.
Patrick Rauland: Yeah. No, no. It looks great. Actually, I kind of think your unique pieces if anything would be like the cool thing that sets you apart, right? I feel like anyone can go to any manufacturer and have a board, and some cool dice, and some cool cards, but you … I'll put some pictures in the show notes. Some of the pictures that you have of the little … They're not miniatures, but the components, but they're … They're not miniatures, but they do represent … They're really cool plastic spaceships, right?
Jackson Pope: You get massive sheets of this, which is like a fifth of an inch, five ml thick. They just laser cut spaceship shapes out of it. You end up with a fleet of spaceships. We've got some massive great dreadnoughts. We've got some carriers that allow you to bring fighters and bombers into play. Then we've got some heavily armored little destroyers that run around blowing things up, but are quite flimsy, and have a habit of falling apart when they get hit. Yeah. I really like the parts.
Jackson Pope: I mean, if you look at I mean, the number of miniature heavy kickstarters at the moment, we're definitely not competing with those. These are very, what's the word? I don't want to say plain. I want to say clean, aesthetically suitable. Yeah, let's go with that. Minimalist game pieces. Yeah. Then you just-
Patrick Rauland: They're minimalist miniatures.
Jackson Pope: So for me, success is a game breaking even, and [crosstalk 00:29:53]. I've got a job. That job pays for my mortgage and everything else. I'm not looking to become a full-time board game publisher. I've tried to do that in the past and wasn't very good at it. If I can … If these games can cover their costs, that's successful for me because I don't want this to be sucking up all of my personal and, well all my family's savings or anything like that. I'd like it to support itself. Zombology has just broken even as well, so that has now officially become successful.
Patrick Rauland: Congrats.
Jackson Pope: I can guess what it means, but you can explain it to me.
Overrated Underrated Game
Patrick Rauland: I like to end with the overrated underrated game. Have you heard of this? Excellent. Basically, I'm going to force you to take a position on a topic, and you have to say if it's overrated or underrated. There is not adequately rated. That is not an option. If I said, “Yoga,” you'd be like, “Underrated because body healthiness good.” Well, maybe more eloquent than that.
Jackson Pope: Yeah, underrated especially FlickFleet.
Patrick Rauland: All right. First one, dexterity games. Are they overrated or underrated?
Jackson Pope: I'm a massive Star Wars fan, so I'm going to have to go underrated, even though it's massively highly rated. It would be a push to rate it higher by a lot of people. But I'm going to go underrated.
Patrick Rauland: I like it. All right. This one's a simple tuck boxes for just card games. Nothing fancy, just the card-
Jackson Pope: I'll go overrated. They kind of work, but they're not that exciting. Tins, they're quite nice. [inaudible 00:31:54] boxes, really nice. Tuck boxes, [inaudible 00:31:57].
Patrick Rauland: I hear you. Sorry, there's a siren going in the background. Last one-
Jackson Pope: Twitter gets a really bad reputation for all the trolls on there, and I'm utterly convinced it's full of them. But somehow I exist in a little bubble of really, really nice people on board game Twitter. Yeah, I definitely think it's underrated. Probably the easiest place is Twitter Jackson_Pope. You can find out more about Zombology and FlickFleet at our website, which is www.eurydicegames.co.uk. That's E-U-R-Y-D-I-C-E games.co.uk. I'm also on Instagram and Google+, and a few other things, but you'll be able to find all of those from the Eurydice Games website.
Patrick Rauland: Very cool. By the way, listeners if you like this podcast, please leave us a review on iTunes. If you leave a review, Jackson said he would ping you on Craft Wednesday and keep you accountable, which is pretty exciting I think. Lastly, just on some stuff for my game, I recently put up a page on my site that shows the progress of my game Fry Thief. If you want to follow along with the game I'm working on called Fry Thief, and learn about my Kickstarter, which will probably be early 2019, just sign up on the site. You can visit us at … I may have to join Craft Wednesday, yes. That may have to happen. Okay. Quick question for you, can … I'm literally this week, I'm working on the packaging for the game. I'm making up some new mock ups for the prototype that I'm going to send into The Game Crafter to get a prototype in. Is that the type of thing I can send into Craft Wednesday, like here's the new designs for the box?
Jackson Pope: Have you done the layout yourself? All of those are things that count. Even game design counts. There are people who just talk about how their game is going. There are people who post pictures of prototypes, or the art they're doing, or the thing they've recently ordered from The Game Crafter or a similar site. All of that counts. If you're crafting something to do with table top games, I'm interested.
Patrick Rauland: Love it. All right. Hold on. I am going to open up my to do list app right now, and I am going to go into … I have a whole subcategory for board games. I have a whole category of tasks just for board games, and I will ping-
Jackson Pope: Good stuff. I look forward to seeing how you're getting on.
Patrick Rauland: Boom. It's happening. It's in my … Once something is in my to do list, it happens. All right. Listeners, if you want to, you can visit the site indieboardgamedesigners.com. As I said, I will have some pictures of Jackson's game, FlickFleet, and just other pictures that I can steal from his Twitter feed in the show notes. You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at [crosstalk 00:35:21] board game. F as in fun, and trick as in trick taking games. Until next time, happy designing everyone. Bye bye.