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Patrick Rauland: Hello, everyone. Welcome to The Indie Board Game Designers podcast, where I sit down with a different independent game designer every single week, and we talk about their experience in game design and the lessons they've learned along the way. My name is Patrick Rauland, and today I'll be talking with Eric Raue, who designed Town Builder: Coevorden, which was just on Kickstarter earlier this year and you can still preorder it. He also makes board game companion apps, Shop ‘N Time and Zombie Slam. Eric, welcome to the show.
Eric Raue: Thanks.
Patrick: Did I get Coevorden, right?
Patrick: Coevorden, there we go. That sounds much better.
Eric: It's Coevorden.
Patrick: There we go. Love it. I've done a little bit of research on you, but the audience hasn't, so I like to start with a silly little lightning round game. You ready?
Patrick: Great. All right. So, what is a game you'd play with someone every single time at a con?
Eric: I like playing games I've never played before, at conventions, it's a great place. I love the libraries that they have there. Usually, when I go to conventions, I'm doing prototypes. It's always nice to duck out and play some silly little game.
Patrick: If I had a silly game about stealing fries, that you've never played before, you might be interested in playing that?
Eric: I might. I tend to like more thinky, slower paced games.
Patrick: Cool. Very cool. If you could visit any country in Europe, where would you go?
Eric: I would go back to the Netherlands, to play the game in the city.
Patrick: They'd be very cool. Where have you been in the Netherlands?
Eric: We stayed with my cousin for about a month. It's great when you can stay with locals. We went to Coevorden of course, that's where my dad was born. I got to see where all of his stories were from. I went to Amsterdam, Rotterdam and I don't know. A bunch of cities in between. Giethoorn, it's a beautiful place. All the roads, if you call them roads, are canals.
Patrick: It's gorgeous. I've been there a couple of times for work, and it's insanely gorgeous. The last question is, since we're getting closer to summer, what is your favorite flavor of ice cream?
Eric: I like creamy french vanilla with chocolate.
Patrick: That sounds fantastic.
Eric: I want some now.
How Did You Get Into Board Games Board Game Design?
Patrick: First real question. How did you get into board games and board game design?
Eric: I played Magic as a kid, like a lot of people have. Didn't play for a bunch of years. University friends come around and say, “We all played Magic before. Let's try drafting.” At that draft, a friend took me aside in between rounds and was like “I got this game Dominion, would you like to play this?” I'm like, “Sure.” Then, I don't know, and he just started obsessing me over game design. I've always been obsessed with game design, but more the video game side of things. I started doing board game design for fun, from the time off from making real games. It turned out I was better at making board games than video games, so that's what happened. I'm part of the Game Artisans of Canada, we meet every week, and we playtest each other's games. It's pretty intense, and I love it.
Patrick: I've heard from a bunch of people from the Game Artisans of Canada, and I'm super impressed that you have a weekly meetup. As far as I can tell, the only place that I've talked to other game designers that have a weekly meetup is New York. Other places have a biweekly one or a monthly one, but a weekly meetup is just fantastic.
Eric: Actually, there's a few cities around Canada that have weekly meetups. Calgary, for example, Toronto. Toronto has Snakes and Lattes, the board game cafe there.
Are Town/City Builders Over Represented?
Patrick: Very cool. I've heard a lot of good things about Snakes and Lattes, and I'll have to check it out. I want to talk about your game. You have a town builder, a city builder. I've gotten some feedback at my local meetup that theme is overdone and you should try to find something else because there is all sorts of city building, town building games. I'm curious if you've run into that feedback and how you handled it?
Eric: It's interesting. Town Builder started– I started designing that in November 2012. It's quite an old design I've iterated on for a while. I was pretty new to board games then, so I didn't have that– I was naive at the time, I guess. It was literally called Town Builder, not Town Builder: Coevorden at the time. Although Coevorden has always been an inspiration for the game. I did receive some feedback. I was originally planned to self-publish, so I didn't think too much about it. I thought the gameplay was interesting in itself, with the multi-use cards, that would be the selling point even if the theme has been overdone. Plus, some of the characteristics of Dutch town building, it's usually generic medieval fantasy, but we got these double-moated, star-shaped city that is the centerpiece of the game.
Patrick: Cool. You thought the mechanics would separate it?
Eric: I definitely don't care as much about theme as mechanics. If mechanics don't interest me, the theme won't save the game effectively. Of course, I want a theme that is compelling too. That's why I hired an artist, Fellipe Martins, he's from Brazil. I was planning to do all the stuff myself, then I realized I was more of a designer than a business person, so figuring out how to publish that was fun.
How Did You Pitch a Town Builder?
Patrick: That's cool. How did you pitch it? Did publishers like hearing that you have a town builder? Were any of them skeptical?
Eric: I didn't pitch it to anybody. There's a local convention, the Terminal City Tabletop Convention. I think it's the fifth year this year. There's another group of designers First Fish Games, that's Stephanie, Liam, and Gord. We were basically in the Proto Alley, playing each other's games, and they played it a lot, and they liked it. I didn't realize how much they liked it. But I was like “You did ‘Get Off My Land!' It was on Kickstarter, it was pretty decent success. Maybe you could help me finish it off?” They're awesome artists as well, so they got to do the finishing touches of the game. So, it was pretty easy. We talked to them, and they liked the game a lot.
Patrick: I've talked to a lot of people, but I don't think I've talked to anyone where playtesters were willing to become the publishers. That's pretty amazing.
Eric: At Proto Alley, there's always downtime because a lot of people at the convention are just there to play published games. Typically, designers will play each other's games eventually over the weekend. I played their game, and they played mine, we gave each other feedback.
Where Did the Multi-use Cards Come From?
Patrick: One of things I like about the game, looking at the cards, I love multi-use cards. I noticed you can start building a building, or you can use buildings as resources. Then finally, when you use all the resources, you can turn the card, and it'll become a complete building. When I think of town builders, I tend to think of more Euro-y, less card flippy types of games. I'm curious, did the multi-use cards come in the beginning, did they come in at the end? Where do they come from?
Eric: I have received the feedback that this feels like a Euro game, despite having cards, just because of how the mechanisms and balance work. The initial start was I was playing board games on my iPad. I realized most of them for local play, because I wanted to play with my parents, had hidden information, so I had to pass the device around. I didn't want that, so I was like, “I want a game that is all public information.” There's cards you draft from the middle, and then you use it for two different ways, you either play in front of you or you discard it for an ability. Then I quickly after that changed it to, one is a building, one is a resource. I didn't know it was called multi-use cards at the time, Seven Wonders was the only multi-use card game I had played at the time, but even then it only uses it a tiny bit.
Any Limits on Multi-use Cards?
Patrick: I dig that. I'm curious because I've seen some games that have even more uses. On the bottom are the resources, you can discard it for an ability, or you can build the creature up here. I was wondering, is there a limit to how many ways you can use a card, did you come across that?
Eric: Depends on the scope of what you're trying to do. Carl Chudyk designed Glory to Rome or Innovation. The skill ceiling is a lot higher, so players are OK with puzzling out these obscure uses. Generally, two is– Obviously you need two to be classified multi-use. Three is good, but it depends on the ratio of how often you use it for that third use. It's two uses in Town Builder: Coevorden, except I wanted one of the resources to behave differently, that's why the gold is an upfront cost that you store, and then you pay when you start something. Whereas the resources are something, you add after you start a foundation.
Patrick: Interesting. I mostly watched the Kickstarter video and went through the Kickstarter page, but I didn't realize the gold was different.
Eric: It's a slight difference. I like breaking up the monotony. If everything was a resource, it would just be very samey. The gold idea is “You're saving up for an unknown future, whereas the resource is where you can plan” and like “I want this building, I'll figure out how to build it later,” sort of thing.
What Game Design Issues Did You Run Into?
Patrick: Very cool. I like it. Did you run into any game design issues? You said you been working on this since 2012, I assume there was some development over the last seven years.
Eric: Not all of that time was development. The game came together extremely quickly. The first prototype I played was unbalanced, but it had all the core systems there. I like making asymmetric games, so that was a lot of balancing issues. One of the things I struggled with was once-per-turn powers.
Eric: I had a friend who broke the game in the first two turns that he played. The solution I came up with is, you can only use one of the once-per-turn powers, the star powers in the game, once each turn. It limits how many of them you can have, which also has the added benefit of distributing those powers more fairly among players.
Eric: What comes up is really what determines the game, right? It's a lot of balancing, a lot of playtesting, playtesting, playtesting. A lot of it was thanks, my parents. It was designed for them to enjoy. I was getting regular playtesting with them. If something– if they didn't understand it, I would change it.
Eric: Sometimes I would notice things like strategies, I wanted to be more prevalent, so I would change the resource at the bottom the card. A card can have one or two resources and/or gold at the bottom. If a card has two resources, it's more likely to be picked because it's more flexible. If I wanted a card less likely to be picked for resources, I would put a single resource at the bottom. Or a gold, which not everybody wants. Gold is not an essential part of the game, but it's one of the avenues you can pursue.
Does The First Playtest Have to Work?
Patrick: That's cool. I've been designing games for not that long, but it seems like all the games that do well in the first place– Not do well, but they can't– Boy, how do I want to say this? They have to work on the first playtest. They might be broken, there might be points values that are broken or some abilities, but the game itself has to work in that first playtest. Otherwise, for me, it doesn't seem like I can fix it. It has to be good to start, and then you can do stuff to make it better. Has that been your experience too?
Eric: Some games come easier than others. I've had ones where I've struggled through and changed core systems. For me, though, when you change the core system to the game, it becomes another game. Maybe that's what you're feeling as well? If it didn't click, it's like another game. I've seen designers struggle in my group, where they've totally overhauled the game, and it just feels better, but it's so different that you don't even recognize it from the same mechanisms.
Patrick: Yeah. There's a guy in my local game group who's been working on a cool vampire taking over the city game, but I think he's probably made like three or four different games. You know what I mean? They're all significantly different. I'm sure things are getting better, and from what I've seen they're getting better. They are probably four different games. Interesting. It's cool to see, it seems like yours worked on the first try and you kept building on it from there.
Eric: I've had other games where that's the opposite. I shelved them because I'm like “I've smoothed out all the problems, but sometimes there's this inherent problem with the game.” Either you realize too late, and you built everything around it, which makes it hard to decouple and fix one part of it, or you realize that the game is too random because of the mechanic, and that's what the whole game is built around.
Tell Us About the Playmat
Patrick: Interesting. One of things I wanted to ask you about is the play mat. On the Kickstarter campaign, there's a cool play mat where you can put all the buildings that are in front of everyone onto the play mat. I love that the play mat fits inside the box. That never happens. The only game where I can think of where the play mat fits inside the box is Legendary Encounters. Every other game that has play mats, they're always extras, and you need to store them in a separate area. I don't know why, but that bothers me, so I love that it was done that way. Did you have any impact on that, or was that all the publisher?
Eric: It was the publisher for sure. The day before the Kickstarter goes up, I'm like, “There's a deluxe version.” We talked about a play mat, but I thought it was an add on, a separate thing. They're like “There's this big box. We're going to put the play mat in there.” I'm like, “I don't know that that box size looks super weird. I'd rather have something that was more square.” I was skeptical to start with. I thought it was cool, and we talked about this idea of “Do people want to store play mats separately?” They themselves loved collecting play mats. They've got like five Century: Spice Road expansion play mats. They got the Golem Edition, the other edition. They're super picky on this kind of stuff. They're like “Yeah, we've got to do this.” They mocked it up, and I saw it in person, and I'm like “OK, this looks cool.” Seeing the box in person is way cooler than on the actual Kickstarter page. We've just got the printer proofs in this week, so I was looking at what they did. It looks pretty awesome.
Patrick: I love that. Side note, I love the Century: (Spice Road) Golem Edition. That is such a gorgeous game. I haven't seen the play mat for it, but I'm sure it's gorgeous. There's been a couple games– The game that's coming to mind right now is Tiny Epic Zombies, which totally would benefit from play mats, but I didn't get it because it doesn't fit in the box. I don't have a way of storing things outside of the box that makes sense. There's been so many Kickstarter campaigns that I would love to support that way, but I never get the play mat. I love that you guys figured it out.
Eric: I have seen the Tiny Epic Zombie play mat, it is massive.
Patrick: I bet. You can imagine that game without it, and it's probably putzy, right? You have to set out all the cards, and it's a little bit putzy. Anyways, I love that you did that. Good job. Curious, what was the audience's feedback on that? Did the backers like it?
Eric: The play mat?
Patrick: Yeah, or just the–
Eric: Or, it in the box? I think people liked it. I honestly thought more people would go for the base game than deluxe, but I think we had a pretty even split between the two. We're manufacturing more play mats that we can sell separately at conventions as well. They have a separate box. Of course, there's the deluxe box, and we're printing a bunch extra. You also buy those at conventions until they run out.
What Research Do You Do For Your Games?
Patrick: That's cool. So tell me, what type of– Going into the background of this game, what research did you do before– For this game and for other games, how many hours you spend researching before you start a new game design?
Eric: Are you talking about mechanical research or thematic research?
Patrick: I'm going to say both.
Eric: I don't do a lot of thematic research, because usually, I start with some mechanism that interests me. I'm not a mechanics-only designer. I will try to come up with some theme and use that to be inspired by. Like, “How do I marry the theme and the mechanic right from the beginning?” I like watching a lot of review videos. Even little bits, to have an understanding of what games are up there. Even if I haven't played them all.
Eric: For a theme though, with Town Builder: Coevorden, it was mainly about my dad's stories and how to incorporate that into the game. My research there was looking at Citadels and finding all the building names to use for the initial prototype. I would look up buildings. The game is not historically accurate to Coevorden, and I imagine a lot of those places don't exist. It's three times bigger than what it is.
Eric: The Dutch guys I was talking to on another podcast, they pointed out the cheese stand, they were curious. It's amazing how many people focus on that cheese stand. It's the most mundane but funny building in the game. Coevorden is not known for cheese like Edam, or other cities are. I had this absurdly cheese-filled cart in the game. I love cheese, so that's why it's in there.
Eric: Research-wise I have got another game that I've been working on about dueling. We looked up– This is a co-design, and we looked up what the history of dueling was. We learned some fascinating things. People would duel– When it was starting to become illegal, people would duel on river banks. The jurisdiction was two different ones, so it was unclear who was the jurisdiction to prosecute somebody. This is the best part. There was this one where the guy killed the other guy, and he argued in court that he went to see a doctor how to shoot somebody without killing him, which got him off the murder charge.
Patrick: What? Because he didn't try to kill the guy?
Eric: He sought out medical advice from a doctor, how to shoot somebody without killing him, but he ended up killing him anyway.
Patrick: Does that work in today's court system?
What Types of Games Do You Like to Design?
Patrick: Good to know. I'm glad we've updated those laws. What type of games do you like to design? What is fun, what is hot? What are you working on right now?
Eric: I like designing card games. I try to design board games, but then I always come back to– You can do so much with cards that I want to do more things with cards. I like using card games that use cards in different ways.
Eric: Android: Netrunner was exciting for me, and I designed a game inspired by it without actually having played it. Evil Genius versus Spies! When you build up evil layers and the other person is trying to infiltrate them. Right now what I'm working on is a two-player card combat game called Sky Duels with co-designer Craig Bednar. He also shares my love of multi-use cards. He's told me, he's like “Every game I design, it's going to have multi-use cards.” It is a two-player card combat game with airships. You're fighting each other. It's that dueling-inspired theme that I was referring to. We've got some really sweet art by an artist Jesse Turner, we've got four factions done. We're going through blind, and we'll be talking to publishers in the near future. Exciting about that.
Patrick: That is very exciting. So sorry, are you dueling with airships? Or are you dueling on an airship?
Eric: The airships send out units, so you deploy units. The core idea of the game is every card has three connectors at the top. You can imagine the left connector, let's say, has three attack. Another unit has a right connector with two shields, so when they connect to each other, the shields and the damage will match. The shield will absorb some of it, but if the damage icon is let's say the middle connector, it's going to avoid the shield. There's all these spatial connections of connecting parts together.
What Resource Would You Recommend to Another Game Designer?
Patrick: That sounds fun. I can totally see that working. Very cool. Awesome. I'm going to skip down a little bit here. I always like to ask people, what is a resource that you'd recommend to another game designer?
Eric: There's two books that I recommend. Generally, The Art of Game Design: A Book of Lenses by Jesse Schell. If you're new to game design, it presents a clear structure for learning design. It is more geared up towards beginners and video games. The second book I'd recommend is Designing Games by Tynan Sylvester. I think it's a perfect intermediate book to read because he focuses on experience and the emotion of playing, rather than the mechanics of what goes into designing games.
Patrick: I'm looking these up right now. If you had to pick since I haven't had the chance to look at either of these. Which one of those two would you recommend most?
Eric: Art of Game Design is a safe recommend because it's good for all skill levels. The other one, I feel like, you should have a bit of experience before you read it to get the most out of it or read it again once you do.
Patrick: Got it. Love it. I have to say it feels like the game design world doesn't have enough introduction material. I want more people to have a foundation of how to make a game. Does that make sense? The overall process of how to make a game, “Here are the steps, and here's what your goal is.” I almost think we need introductory stuff. Once that becomes widespread, then come up with more content for the middle-of-the-road stuff. In your experience, maybe this is different in Canada, but at least where I am, a lot of game designers are self-taught, and they haven't even read any of these books. I'm guessing maybe 10% of my playtesting group has read a book like this. I'm curious, is that the same in Canada?
Eric: I went to University, I took the game design classes there. It was a lot more academic. People that are designing games tend to design games and not go into academia, so some of these books like Ralph Koster's Rules of Play, there are some really good books on game design. They're more video game focused, but even so, a lot of them start with “Let's do some paper prototypes just to practice to become good at the real thing.” There is a decent amount of books there, but I think a lot of people start without looking up how to design a game. I think that's fine. That's OK. Because the most important thing to do is to have good taste. To quote Ira Glass, because he's a radio show guy, “If you don't have good taste, you can't come up with a good game, so play a lot of games.” I have seen designers that are like “I designed this game.” I look at it, and I say, “This isn't good. This shows you haven't played modern games. Maybe you should play them.”
Patrick: I will include Ira Glass' quotes. It is one of my favorites. I don't know what you're talking about, but there's the one about when you get into a thing. You have high taste, but you don't have high skill, so it feels like everything you make is bad, and so you have to keep making stuff until your skill level matches your taste. Ira Glass does This American Life, I think?
Eric: I think so, yeah.
How Do You Know You Have Good Taste?
Patrick: Cool. Let me pivot that question and let me respond to that. How do you know if you have good taste or not? Assuming you don't have good taste, how do you get good taste?
Eric: I played so many video games from a kid, it's like “How do you know you enjoy what's good out there?” It's not about reviews or qualities, and I think part of it is understanding what you like about a game. Why do I like drafting games? It's because I like the puzzle of “What do I want to use it for?” It's a binary choice, do I use it for this or this? I guess that's good taste? I mean, the one mistake to acquire good taste, is to go and play games for the sake of gaining good taste. You should be playing games for the sake of enjoyment. If you're not getting enjoyment of the game, play some other games. Not everybody enjoys every style of game. I don't like trivia-style games, for example, but I've played them because I want to research it. Even so, I would never get good taste to design one myself.
Patrick: I'm processing. I'm wondering– A lot of other people have recommended “Just play a lot of games.” I think by playing lots of games you get to experience everything, but don't you think you have to think critically about the games you play? One of my favorite series on YouTube is Jamey Stegmaier has my favorite mechanic of every single game. I think having a practice like that, if you play a game, write down what was your favorite part of that game. I think the act of reflecting on some of that stuff might help you improve your taste or articulate your taste. Anyways, that's me, rambling, and you're the guest.
What's the Best Money You've Spent?
Patrick: Let me ask you more questions. I do want to know what is– I asked for resources, I love hearing book recommendations. Is there something else, other than books, that you spent money on that you would recommend that someone else also spend money on?
Eric: I don't know if I'd recommend this per-se, but because I was potentially publishing myself I wanted to get my printing set up properly, so I got a nice laser printer for a few hundred dollars. Keep in mind, everything's in Canadian dollars, so I imagine it's like two cents American, right?
Patrick: I wish.
Eric: One thing I found was I wanted cheap toner because toner is really expensive. Four cartridges, $100 dollars each. That's the cost of a printer. I tried refills and everything, but the quality is just not very good. What I ended up buying is a spectrometer called the ColorMunki Design.
Eric: What that allows me to do is print out a page which has swatches of color on there and then scan it, getting the actual color. The computer will calibrate, so the colors will look decent. It won't have the same color range as an expensive cartridge, but now I'm paying $80 dollars for four cartridges versus $400. So, that's saving a lot of money. The spectrometer was like $500 in the first place, but it lets me figure out if what I'm printing is fairly accurate to what I expect a manufacturer to do.
Patrick: I will include a link to that because it's some weird spelling. Also, who knows how to spell spectrometer? But that looks very cool. I don't have fancy equipment like that, so maybe I need to upgrade my equipment because it looks gorgeous.
What Does Success Look Like?
I like to end the show with a game– Or not a game, with a question. Which is, what does success in the board game world looks like to you?
Eric: I've chatted with this with my co-designer for Sky Duels. What is success for a designer is different than what is success for a publisher. For him, he's happy to have something out there that people enjoy. I think I agree with him. The quality of what I want to do is find a group of people that enjoy the game. It's not about appealing to everybody, because that's impossible. Are there people that absolutely love the game? If some people don't like it, they are like “I want more depth. I want an ability on every card,” or something like that. That's not what the game is for. Unfortunately, I can't just go to BoardGameGeek and see that audience. Because a lot of it is for people that don't go to BoardGameGeek because it's more of targeting people like my parents and their friends. That's a lot of the playtesters I had for Town Builder.
Patrick: I find that tricky, finding the right playtesters. I've been into board games for years, but I didn't get into BGG until probably two years ago. It's a distorted view of the market. If you have different visions for success, how do you find alignment with a co-designer?
Eric: In Sky Duels, one of the challenges is a two-player card combat game is not the easiest sell to a publisher. You either support it through some massive localized play or do a big box. We struggle with that question all throughout development. Success for us was honestly getting it published at all. We're more interested in that than making it a bigger hit. Town Builder: Coevorden, I'm hoping it will hit a wider audience that will be up to– The Kickstarter is great, 1,500 backers plus a bunch of them backed a few extra copies. They're in stores in Malaysia ordered some, Germany, a few other stores ordered directly from us. I'm hoping for reviews to be positive. I know Rado liked it. I'm curious about what the Dice Tower says, of course, everybody is. Some friends have said, “This could win the SDJ.” I'm like, “I don't know, first, it has to be in German, I guess.” It's really hard to know when you're so close to a game, all you can see is the flaws.
Patrick: Absolutely. I totally hear you on that. All I can think about is this card is slightly overpowered, but if I do this, it'll make it too weak. I don't know which one's better. The people who play a game once, twice, three times, ten times don't even notice the things you're talking about.
Overrated Underrated Game
I like to end with a silly game called Overrated/Underrated. I think you've heard about it, right?
Patrick: Fantastic. I'm going to give you a word or phrase. If I said “Minis,” as in “Miniatures,” you would say if it's Underrated/Overrated. Obviously, you would say they're underrated.
Eric: I like my cards.
Patrick: That's fair. I should have known that. First real one, Gen Con, is it overrated or underrated?
Eric: I've never been yet, so I don't have an opinion of that. I think it could be overrated?
Patrick: I assume you have Starbucks in Canada, is that overrated or underrated?
Eric: I make coffee at home, so I wouldn't know. But they're pretty nice places. I think they put a bit too much money into the experiences, and I want to get in, get coffee, and get out.
Patrick: If you can't even be bothered to go in, I might say it's overrated, right?
Eric: Yep. That's fair.
Patrick: It's like it's a board game that you're not even pulling off a shelf. It's like sitting there, and you're like, “Meh.” This next one should be easy. Play mats, Overrated/Underrated?
Eric: My opinion changed. Because I don't own a play mat for anything, but then the samples for the play mat game for Town Builder. I'm like, “OK. I can see myself always using this play mat.” Because I never used play mats in development. It's definitely underrated.
Patrick: Sorry, did your opinion change because it's your game, or just because it's so pretty, or because it fits in the box? What is the reason for the change?
Eric: It's probably my game. I still wouldn't buy another one for another game.
Patrick: That's funny. Last one, Game of Thrones. Overrated/Underrated?
Eric: Underrated. Last night was a pretty epic. No spoilers, it was a great one.
Patrick: This episode will probably come out right around the second to last, or last episode. We're talking about episode 3, which was last night. I saw it as well, and it was epic. Who knows, the Game of Thrones could be over by the time this ends. But yeah, Eric, thank you for being on the show.
Eric: Thank you.
Patrick: Where can people find you online?
Eric: You could find me on Twitter. My name, Eric Raue.
Patrick: How do you spell that?
Patrick: Awesome. Listeners, if you like this podcast, please leave us a review. Boy, Eric, I forgot to ask you about this before the show started. If you'll leave a review, Eric will hopefully help you design a bedroom in your apartment, as opposed to designing a town. Does that work, Eric?
Eric: Architecture is another passion of mine. I always love learning about it. So, maybe?
Patrick: Very cool. All right. You can visit the site, IndieBoardGameDesigners.com. You can follow me on Twitter, and I am @bftrick. Until next time everyone, happy designing. Bye-bye.