Patrick Rauland: Hello everyone and welcome to the Indy Board Game Designer's Podcast where I sit down with a different independent game designer every single week and we talk about their experience in game design, including all of the lessons that they've learned along the way. My name is Patrick Rauland and today I'm going to be talking with Dario Reinhardt who designed Crimson Company, which is up on Kickstarter right now. Dario, welcome to the show.
Dario Reinhardt: Thank you for the invitation. Hello.
Patrick Rauland: So I like to start with a little game, because I researched you and your Kickstarter and your games, but the audience hasn't. So just tell me a little bit about you. Question number one, do you have a favorite Three Musketeers movie?
Dario Reinhardt: Not really, but I think I saw one, and this is the Man in the Iron Mask, something like this. I only know the German title.
Patrick Rauland: No, that's perfect. Yeah, Man in the Iron Mask. Cool. And you liked it or didn't like it?
Dario Reinhardt: I liked it but I didn't want to like it because it has Leonardo DiCaprio in it and at this time, I was a teenager, and all the girls very much were in love with Leonardo DiCaprio, and I hated that. And I saw those movies, Titanic and Romeo and Juliette, and I really hated this guy but loved the films he did and think he acted good, so it was kind of weird thing.
Patrick Rauland: Nice, so you got over it. You got over it.
Dario Reinhardt: I got over it and now I really like his films and don't care anymore about the girls.
Patrick Rauland: Cool, cool. So your game, Crimson Company's about, at least on the cover there's like sword fighting. So have you taken any sword or knife fighting classes ever?
Dario Reinhardt: Not at all, and I'm afraid of it, I think.
Patrick Rauland: Okay. I've been to some gaming conventions where they offer both sword and knife fighting classes. So if you ever get an opportunity, give it a go. It's weird but fun.
Dario Reinhardt: Okay, and it doesn't hurt?
Patrick Rauland: No, no, you're not like … you'd get to sparing after months of practice. This is like you're using plastic PVC pipes, they're like plastic tubes, and you're hitting them against each other so you can't really hurt each other.
Dario Reinhardt: Okay. That sounds interesting.
Patrick Rauland: I'm not that risky. So you're from Germany, I would love to know what is something that people do not know about Germany?
Dario Reinhardt: I think there are many stereotypes about Germans and most of them are true, but one is not true, that is that Germans eat a lot of sauerkraut. At least not nowadays.
Patrick Rauland: Okay, so sauerkraut, completely overblown?
Dario Reinhardt: I think so, yeah.
How Did You Get Into Board Game and Board Game Design?
Patrick Rauland: Okay. Love it. So first real question, how did you get into board games and board game design?
Dario Reinhardt: I think of course as a kid and I have the feeling there are families which play boardgames and there are families that don't play board games at all. In my family, there was a split. My mother played board games a lot also as a child and my dad and my brother didn't like board games so much. Even though I had a small brother, I never really found someone to play board games with except my mother and this really sucks in the long term. In Germany, Settlers of Catan were really, really successful and interesting. In the middle of the '90s, when I was ten or something, I think this was really the thing that made me think okay, board games are important, of course, before I had some experiences with Monopoly and whatever, but I think Settlers of Catan and also these strategy games in the middle of the '90s, like StarCraft and Command and Conquer really made me passionate about games in general. And to be honest, there was a long break in board games. I was more into digital games and especially into browser games which were popular in Germany in the beginning of the 2000s.
Dario Reinhardt: But I made my way back into boardgames I think five, six years ago when all of these great games came up. I work as a digital game designer for browser games in Germany. And we had lead game designer who came from the board game industry and he very much pushed the topic. Also really pushed us on pen and paper prototyping. So I really got into board games again. I really felt this passion about boardgames from my childhood again and I think so much is going on in boardgames nowadays, it's really, really great. It has become much more interesting than digital games which were a thing really in the '90s with all these strategy and cool 2D games coming up. And now it's really amazing what's going on on Kickstarter and on BoardGameGeek. It's really, really cool.
Patrick Rauland: Yeah, no, the industry is just evolving at a rapid pace. Which is really cool to watch and also participate in, but I just wanna go back. So you work at a video game company and one of your game designers has experience in tabletop boardgames and he encouraged you to do paper, pen and paper prototyping for video games, is that right?
Dario Reinhardt: Yeah. Not exactly because that was five years ago. He left the company four years ago or something. It's longer ago. I started ten years ago in this company. I was a junior game designer. I came into game design, I could never imagine to be a game designer but I played browser games a lot when they became popular. Was a feedback giver to one big browser game, Travian, and the programmer of this game reminded me when he employed some game designers and recognized me that I was one of the first players who really engaged in this game and gave feedback and suggestions. So he invited me, I did an internship for one months and after that I, directly from the university, got employed, which was really cool. I moved from Berlin to Munich for this and since, yeah, almost ten years now, I am working for Travian Games and the popular browser game was Travian when I started.
Dario Reinhardt: During the time working in Travian games, I think in the first year already, they employed one lead game designer also, which was very into board games, because I think he was one of the guys spreading Magic The Gathering in Germany and was very into game prototyping. There, I really, were more focused on doing pen and paper prototypes. I figured out this is something that really is great for me because it really goes to the core mechanics and shows you how games work and this is something that really interests me. So I started beside my job building pen and paper prototypes for board games, then. So in the job for digital games and in my free time for board games.
What Are Some Similarities and Differences with Video Game Design?
Patrick Rauland: Very cool. I'm curious, I don't know what percent of the audience here has a background in video games, but I know at least in my local design area, there's one regular person who comes to the boardgame night who has, like his day job is video games. So I'm guessing there's some overlap there, but what is it like, the difference between designing a video game and designing a board game? Could you speak at all to that?
Dario Reinhardt: I think board games are much more focused. Board games, you have not the tools to really artificially … how to say? Board games, you have only the pure mechanics and the core loop has to be very much fun and in digital games you have all this progress mechanics and all the stuff that simply works, best practice. And when you put all this together you already have a decent game. But in board games, it's still they're much more outstanding in their core mechanic because they have to in order to be different from the other board games. It's much more to the core, I would say. I don't know how it is with these very story-driven games like [inaudible 00:09:21], I mean [inaudible 00:09:22] also has a very strong core mechanic but also builds up on many of the progress mechanics that just are fun and not so much [crosstalk 00:09:32].
Where Did The Idea for Crimson Company Come From?
Patrick Rauland: Sure. So I wanna talk about your game, Crimson Company. Now you, we'll talk about, I think, funding goals in a second, but just first tell us a little bit about Crimson Company. Where did the idea come from and I just want to paint a picture. I really like the box art because it looks basically like two Musketeer-y looking people fighting off monsters and there's these cool castles. So where did the idea come from?
Dario Reinhardt: The basic idea, some years ago, I think five years ago, something, I got a colleague and really on the same design line with. He was also very much into boardgames. He even bought an iPad in order to test out all the boardgames that came out on the iPad because he's not so in playing with other people but more getting the grasp and core mechanics of the boardgames. This was Fabian [Fischer 00:10:28] and he willingly played all the boardgame prototypes I produced over the time. And we were talking about board games and we also played Hearthstone a lot when this was popular in the beginning. And we began to rant over the game more and more and we thought this game's so random and it's core, it's good, but the development it took was to more randomness and more randomness. So we thought about what would be the perfect skill-based card game for us? We tried some things out and we soon came to the conclusion that we are not capable of doing a digital game at all. So we decided for doing a board game prototype together for the perfect card game for us.
Dario Reinhardt: And we tried it out, we built it, and tried it out with colleagues. By the way, of course, this was very smooth, this process, because there were just two or three major iterations on the game design. Normally, I don't know, you have 10 or 20. But the colleagues really, really much liked the game and they said, “Yeah, you really should bring out this game, it's great.” Then we gave ourselves a push and we said okay, we will hire an artist doing … I mean this game's really focused so we said okay, when we will ever do a game, then something simple like this, so we asked another colleague if he knows an artist and yeah, he knew a great artist he studied with [inaudible 00:12:31], she really provided us with all the art within three months and everything went very smooth. That was the beginning, how the game evolved.
Mechanics or Theme First?
Patrick Rauland: Yeah, so I guess I wanna, we'll circle back on one thing there. So it sounds like you started with mechanics first and you maybe sort of applied the theme of the game later? Is that the gist I was getting?
Dario Reinhardt: Yes. That's totally the case. We really had some basic philosophies we put at the very beginning of the project. We said we do not want a game that is random. We do want a game where space matters. This is why those three castles are also in the game. Not like in Magic The Gathering where you just attack your opponent. And we want a game where you really can identify with characters. So every card in the game, we said has to be a character and those were our basic design pillars, so to say. And with that we started and figured something out.
What Are Design Pillars?
Patrick Rauland: So I want to dig into that, because I've talked with other people about design pillars. I think the word that other people used was like vision statement for your game. Did you actually have these written out before you made your first prototype?
Dario Reinhardt: No.
Patrick Rauland: No?
Dario Reinhardt: No, we just talked about them and kept the things in our mind. This is something we really kept on. We rarely write stuff down that we want to do something like this, we just talk about it over and over again. And this way it really gets hammered into our heads. And we're both –
Patrick Rauland: Okay, but I mean you definitely talked about this and agreed on these pillars, very little luck, skill-based, all those things, yeah?
Dario Reinhardt: Exactly, yeah.
Patrick Rauland: Wow, that's great. I wish I … I definitely don't make games that way. Maybe I should, but I just have a fun idea and I go with it and I see where it takes me, but I really love the idea of having a mission statement or design pillars for the game and at least talk about them or have some idea and write them out before you get started. That's really, really cool.
Dario Reinhardt: I mean both ways are valid. For us it was really the thing, we said okay, we are missing a really skill-based card game on the market. There's something like Star Realms and those similar games, but these are still very luck-based. And we thought, okay there's nothing that is really skill-based where you don't have to invest much money. So we said okay, this is our goal so we really wanted to point this out and do not lose focus in reaching this goal.
Patrick Rauland: So I've seen a lot of two-player games where you fight over some sort of common resource like Lost Cities or Hanamikoji, and your game, I think, I mean I haven't played it but from the video and the pictures, I gather that your game has a similar element where there's these three castles that you're fighting over and you can basically play cards and if you play the highest card or the most cards, sorry I don't remember the exact mechanism, but you get that castle and then when you get two castles you win. My question is, why are these games so popular? Because both Lost Cities and Hanamikoji are in the top, I don't know, top 200, I don't know for sure, but they're very popular games. And then also why do they work so well one on one? Because I haven't seen those games really work the same way when it's three or more players.
Dario Reinhardt: Yeah, I don't know about Hanamikoji, to be honest. Lost Cities I like, it's a Reiner Knizia game, I think. I think those two player games really are, at least what we had in mind with Crimson Company, was the idea of really doing a duel. This is something I also like about all the trading card games very much, or some living card games, that you really think about outsmarting your opponent and being better. It's like the idea of Chess or Go. To really outsmart your opponent and by doing this not with very abstract figures but those cards really bring an [inaudible 00:16:59] dynamic twist to it, I think. I think there are even more games, when we go to conventions with Crimson Company, people came up with very … with many, many titles like smash up or sirens out and even [inaudible 00:17:24] game, I lost the title, I think it's just a cool idea to have two opponents and with those cards, with the very simple mechanics, you can dig very deep into gameplay I think.
Tell Me About Your Funding Goals
Patrick Rauland: Love it. I'd love to talk about our campaigns. What's really cool, and this was unplanned but just neat, both of our games launched the same day and both of our games happen to have pretty similar funding goals. Mine was $1,500, yours was like, I think when you convert it to US dollars, it's like 1,100 or something like that.
Dario Reinhardt: That's exactly €1,000, yeah.
Patrick Rauland: Yeah, yours was like a thousand Euros I think?
Dario Reinhardt: Yeah. €1,000, exactly.
Patrick Rauland: Maybe let's talk, I mean I know why I set my goal to my number, but can you talk about why did you set yours to a thousand Euros? I mean why not set it to 20,000?
Dario Reinhardt: We really want to do this game and this is why we, or we made in the plan in the very beginning how we can best bring the game to the market. And it was really interesting and it was a telephone call of one and a half hour I think where we really said okay, we want to make this [inaudible 00:18:41] and it started with okay, what do we need to bring a game to Kickstarter? And we pointed many, many things out like we have to pay art, that's €8,000, we have to pay basic marketing, that's I don't know, €2,000. We have to pay 100 games that we can send out to YouTubers, I don't know, we didn't know what this costs. And so on. We pretty soon found out, or not just that soon, that it's not easy to produce 100 copies of a game. So we figured out we had to do 1,000 at least. So we said we'd do these 1,000 and this is why we have still 500 games and we could have set our Kickstarter goal to €12, that one game sold is enough, so to say, but we thought okay, that looks really weird.
Dario Reinhardt: So we thought what would be the lowest funding goal which people would accept as it's possible to do a card game with that somehow, whatever. And with that we came to €1,000. And we also didn't want to set the goal too high because I read the crowdfunding books from Stegmaier and one other and yeah, at least Stegmaier said that you want to have your funding goal as low as possible. Of course, with a side note that people still have to think you can make the game with the money. So yeah, we thought about something between €1,000 and €5,000 or, in the beginning, even €10,000, and came to the conclusion that €1,000 really is the best number for us.
What Budget Would You Recommend to New Game Designers?
Patrick Rauland: So I want to go back to two points there. There is actually a lot of really interesting stuff there. Number one, you planned out all of the costs ahead of time, marketing, the artist, all the stuff. Do you have a budget, like if someone else wants to recreate or create a game similar to yourself, what should their budget be to create the art and marketing and have someone help you with the video or whatever you did? Can you give them a ballpark of how much it will cost to do that?
Dario Reinhardt: We came to the number, we knew the art costs and they can really much differ when you pick them somewhere on the internet, they're much cheaper. We had a decent artist from Austria. For us, it was €8,000 for the character art and some other stuff. So this was the basic figure. But yeah, with all the things included and thinking we would only have 100 initial copies and not knowing at all what this costs, we came to a budget of €17,200, which was a pure estimate. But even with making 1,000 copies and sparing some other things like marketing, and this is something I also want to talk about, it would be cool to talk about. We pretty much got there, that the costs all in all are about this. We got a bit of money back and yeah, of course, Kickstarter helps again now.
Dario Reinhardt: But yeah, we really said the important thing for us as game designers is to bring a board game out where we really can say this is ours, we have done this, and there's our name written on it. And we also wanted to found a company in order to be able to do all these decisions and because this is also a lot of fun, figuring stuff out and trying things and doing nothing, knowing nothing but somehow trying to sneak in, I don't know, right with Chinese guys in order to find out that the biggest boardgaming manufacturer is 100 kilometer away from where you live, it's really interesting. 2018 was really, really interesting for us. But we came to this budget and I think when you do a small card game, you should kind of take into account to spend about €15,000, and if you do a bigger game, when you do it really cheap, 20,000, and I would go for 25 to €30,000.
I think when you do a small card game, you should [plan] to spend about €15,000, and if you do a bigger game, when you do it really cheap, 20,000, and I would go for 25 to €30,000.
Dario Reinhardt: Of course, this would be with the first version published, when you Kickstart it earlier, or the earlier you crowdfund it, the earlier you get money in and do not have to invest so much up front, I would say. Oh, I think, can you hear me? Oh, sorry.
Patrick Rauland: I muted myself. So I was talking to myself for a good ten seconds there.
Dario Reinhardt: Okay, great.
Was It Easier to Make 1,000 Than 100 Games?
Patrick Rauland: So let me repeat myself. I just want to say, I want to go back to a previous point you made about it's really hard to make a hundred copies of a game, which is really unfortunate, I think. And you're totally correct, it is really hard to do that. So was your decision, it's really hard to make a hundred copies, so let's just make a thousand? And then you somehow got rid of 500 somehow and you have 500 left? Is that correct?
Dario Reinhardt: Yeah. That's about the way it went.
Do You Not Have an Affordable Print on Demand Service?
Patrick Rauland: That is fascinating. I guess I'm lucky that, I mean in the states here, The Game Crafter is pretty affordable for many games. Obviously it depends on the game you're doing, but it's pretty affordable. You're not gonna get custom plastic-printed pieces or anything like that but a lot of the basic pieces are there. Do you not have a resource like that in Germany? It's surprising to me that you would make a thousand copies before the Kickstarter?
Dario Reinhardt: I think we don't have. I heard that it's easier in the US. To be honest, I didn't really figure that out because in the very beginning we didn't know anything about it. We thought how we somehow get the things together. We looked at Google Maps where the next printer in order to do this stuff, just went there and ask and so on. They were not specialized on board games at all, but they said okay, yeah, we can print you the cards and we ask for how the boxes are produced and we give you a price estimate for this and so on. And we really had thought we have to pick those things together and order some other stuff in China and then package all together in our, I don't know, apartment. But in the end, it was really, I was really much searching on the internet for stuff and then I came across we had really the problem that it was too expensive to have those packages where the game are in.
Dario Reinhardt: And we thought what do we do? Do we just put them somewhere else in or don't we deal with classical packages, whatever? And in the end, I searched for how to do those packages by yourself and there was a link, a YouTube link, here's how the pros do it, and this was a video from [inaudible 00:26:36] really explaining from the beginning to the end how a game is produced. And it was the best. It was just astonishing and I watched it with my girlfriend and she just laughed at me hard because she knew all of those weeks I had suffered because I thought we would never get this game together and there it all was. But we still thought okay this is much too expensive for us, we can't afford it. But I said okay, I will call them and asking doesn't cost anything. It came out that it's affordable to do a thousand copies with them. But the thousand copies is the minimum and I don't know if there's something in Germany we can do a hundred.
How Are You Sharing Kickstarter Tasks?
Patrick Rauland: Sure, interesting. It's funny how, I guess it's funny where to me I assumed every region would have their own game crafter. And maybe there just isn't one in Europe or maybe there is but it's just not quite as good or something like that. It's making me appreciate what I have. So I'd like to talk about, so we're both right in the middle of our Kickstarter campaigns, well I guess we're recording this a few days after our campaigns have launched. I know in my case I'm doing everything, but you have two people helping you. I'd love to know, how are you splitting up tasks? How are you using your time? And also I think with some of the giant Kickstarter campaigns, we assume they're working 24/7 on the campaign. But how many hours a day does it take you to run a Kickstarter campaign, if that makes sense?
Dario Reinhardt: Yeah, that's an interesting question because we just started a few days ago. We started at the fifth, today is the seventh. Our artist is kind of out of the thing. She is a freelancer, we paid her, and everything went great. She is a great artist. But really day-to-day decisions, Fabian and I do. Or day-to-day work. We kind of split it and we got our strength, I would say, and we don't have a clear split there, but it's more jumping into the task when the other one is not capable of it or has no time for it. So it's a constant communication between us via WhatsApp that is very popular here in Germany. Someone writes an email, we shortly kind of make our heads up about it, and come to a decision and then we just write do you write the answer? Okay. This is done and the next thing comes up. So every task that pops up, some tasks we do ourselves without talking about it, but all of the critical stuff I would say we first talk about or communicate about and then one of us does it.
Dario Reinhardt: And it's really funny because we had both … I had a little baby daughter that got born in 2018 and all of this stuff happened there. And we went to Essen and didn't know a thing about anything. It was really improvising all of the time but being two people was really, really great because when one was at the end of his strength or got sick or whatever, always the other one could jump in and this worked really, really well for us. We never have had really a down where nothing was going on. Even so, I had this baby daughter and the first three months are really, you can't do too much else than your day job and this baby daughter.
Dario Reinhardt: So it was really cool to have Fabian there, and if I could give one crucial advice, I would really say it's cool to have a business partner to really rely on and do the stuff together because it's really, really hard to motivate yourself when there's some other person who will always jump into the tasks you can't do and he will always be motivated when you're not and you will be motivated when he is not, so this is really … that was really, really strong for us.
Patrick Rauland: I love that advice. Just as an example, we scheduled this interview and then I think you said Fabian got hurt, I think he broke a finger or something, so it's like hey I can do it on my own. It's nice that someone breaks their finger falling down on a sidewalk or whatever and the other person can pick up the slack. So that's a good example.
Dario Reinhardt: Exactly.
What's a Resource You Recommend to Aspiring Game Designers?
Patrick Rauland: So I wanna slowly start wrapping up here but I have two questions that I really like to ask near the end. Number one, what is a resource that you would recommend to another Indy game designer? What is a website, a blog, a service, graphic designer, what is one thing you would recommend to another game designer?
Dario Reinhardt: I would say when you game design, The Art of Game Design, the book, from Jesse Schell. And for Kickstarter campaigns, I would say it's really the Stegmaier book, Jamey Stegmaier, Strategy Guide for Kickstarter or something like this.
Patrick Rauland: I think it's like A Crowdfunder's Strategy Guide? No.
Dario Reinhardt: Yeah, exactly.
Patrick Rauland: Something like that.
Dario Reinhardt: That is it. You nailed it, I think.
What Does Success Look Like?
Patrick Rauland: Okay, cool. So I have read the Crowdfunder's Strategy Guide. I have not read The Art of Game Design, so I will have to add this to my Goodreads. Thank you for that. So I'd love to know what does success look like? What does success look like for your Kickstarter and then what does success look like moving past your Kickstarter?
Dario Reinhardt: That's a very interesting question. For me, of course, you say a successful Kickstarter is when you really deliver the games to your customers and they are happy with it. And I would definitely underline this. But having such a strong producer like Loot Effect, I'm not really worried about that. It might be that we miscalculated some costs, but then we have to figure things out. I'm not worried about this. I was very worried about the Kickstarter campaign because you know nothing before and you cannot imagine before how strong Kickstarter really is as a platform, or I couldn't, because we did not spend one Euro for marketing in advance. We really said okay, we want to invest everything in the quality of our Kickstarter campaign. That should look awesome and we believe in Kickstarter and that people will browse there and will find our well-made Kickstarter campaign.
Dario Reinhardt: But for me, the successes is really when we reach a decent sum above €5,000, we are at €5,200 now, I think. And this is about the sum which we could still deliver with our 500 remaining games. When it goes higher now and we are just at day 35, and even the Kickstarter campaigns slow down after the first days, I'm very sure we will get over 6,000 and we have to reprint the game. So at least another thousand copies. And that means we have to get them on the market again. And this is really the point, I think, where we can say it's a success because there's the urgency to produce the game again.
Dario Reinhardt: And this will really push us probably to do expansion for it or something in order to have, to do another Kickstarter campaign to get rid of the remaining things again. And yeah, I think going over the €6,000, while not being very nice, because we have another 700 games lying around in our bedrooms for some time, but that's really push us to moving forward, I think moving forward is the essential part because when you're fine with it, okay, you sell all your games, you did not lose a decent amount of money so you're fine with it. But this won't be the case now and we have to keep on and have to produce maybe more games. Definitely an expansion, I think. This is cool and this is a success for us. The demand is so high that we have to produce another batch.
Overrated Underrated Game
Patrick Rauland: I love it. Love it, love it, love it. So I'd love to, I like to end my show with a game called overrated, underrated, have you heard about it?
Dario Reinhardt: No. No.
Patrick Rauland: Excellent. So I'm going to say a word or phrase and then you have to tell me if you think it is overrated or underrated.
Dario Reinhardt: Okay.
Patrick Rauland: If I said the United States, you would obviously be like underrated, it's the coolest country on the planet, something like that.
Dario Reinhardt: Definitely. Yeah. And Trump as president, too, of course.
Patrick Rauland: So BoardGameGeek rating system? Is the rating system overrated or underrated?
Dario Reinhardt: It's definitely overrated. But I think it's the only real source, so you have to go with it.
Patrick Rauland: So it's not great but it's also the best we have?
Dario Reinhardt: I think so. Yeah.
Patrick Rauland: Cool. I like that answer. Let's go with the movie Man in the Iron Mask.
Dario Reinhardt: [crosstalk 00:37:13]
Patrick Rauland: What?
Dario Reinhardt: Like democracy.
Patrick Rauland: So what about The Man in the Iron Mask? Is that overrated or underrated?
Dario Reinhardt: Well, I haven't seen it for 25 years, I think. Something like this. I think it's underrated.
Patrick Rauland: I like it. I should actually go back and watch that. I would be curious if I would still like it. It's been many, many years. Let's go with a card game where you have to reshuffle at least once throughout the game, is that overrated or underrated?
Dario Reinhardt: That is …
Patrick Rauland: Like in terms of how annoying it is, does that make sense? Is that a problem or is that much of a problem or not much of a problem, I think is what I'm asking?
Dario Reinhardt: That's not much of a problem, I think. I think it can even be fun.
Patrick Rauland: Okay. And since you're in the EU, I would, what is your take on Brexit? Is that overrated? Is that underrated? What is happening?
Dario Reinhardt: It's overrated, but it's stupid, too.
Patrick Rauland: It's overrated and stupid. Okay. Love it. Dario, thank you for being on the show. Where can people find you and where can people find your game online?
Dario Reinhardt: Yeah, I'm not present in the web, but our game you find on crimsoncompany.cc and of course also on Kickstarter. Also on the BoardGameGeek, there's a forum to our game. So when you search Crimson Company on BoardGameGeek, you'll also find us of. I think so, Fabian is I think more represented in the internet. You'll find him at LinkedIn or something. I don't know.
Patrick Rauland: So if I remember correctly, it's Fabian Fischer, right?
Dario Reinhardt: Fabian Fischer, yeah. But there are thousand, ten thousand of Fabian Fischer's in Germany, I think. I even have a school friend from Germany who is also called Fabian Fischer and the funny thing is the application for Fabian Fischer went to my desk and I at first thought it was Fabian Fischer from Burden where I'm also coming from because he studied there at this time. And I thought okay, is this a joke? My old school friend which is a programmer applies for the game design position. But yeah, it was another Fabian Fischer.
Patrick Rauland: So thank you again, Dario. If you dear listener liked this podcast, please leave us a review on iTunes. If you leave a review, Dario said he will challenge you to a sword fight at an upcoming convention. You can find both games, Crimson Company and Fry Thief on Kickstarter right now. This'll probably come out in the middle of both of our campaigns. You can find the site, the show notes, at indieboardgamedesigners.com. You can follow me on Twitter, I am @BFTrick, that's B as in boardgames, F as in Fun, and Trick as in trick-taking games. Until next time everyone, happy designing. Bye-bye.
Dario Reinhardt: Cool. Goodbye.