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Patrick Rauland:
Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Indie Board Game Designers podcast, where I sit down with a different independent game designer, and we talk about their experience in game design, and the lessons they've learned along the way. My name is Patrick Rauland, and today I'll be talking with Jeff Chin, who co-designed a ton of games, including Canvas, which is currently on Kickstarter, Cosmocracy, Crypt, Road to Infamy, and Afternova. Canvas is their sixth Kickstarter.

So Jeff, welcome to the show.

Jeff Chin:
Thanks for having me.

Introduction

Patrick Rauland:
Awesome. I like to get started with a lightning round to introduce you to the guest, so let's get started with that. So give me some quick answers here. Who is your favorite painter or artist of some type?

Jeff Chin:
My favorite artist recently is Jakub Rozalski. He's the artist of Scythe. I'm a big fan of his sense of world building, his painterly style. Back in high school and college I was a fan of impressionism, Van Gogh style and just really brushstroke-y type of work. While Jakub Rozalski has a little bit more realistic of a style, I still like that the digital painterliness comes through and everything still feels like a painting. It feels like an illustration and isn't totally hyper-realistic. I really enjoy that style.

Patrick Rauland:
Love that, and yes, the absolute first, the absolute, sorry, the artwork for Scythe is absolutely stunning, so totally agree. Great. If you could be buried with one item, what would that one thing be?

Jeff Chin:
I've always thought it would be cool to, when I die, become a tree. I guess the thing I would be buried with is a seed of some kind.

Patrick Rauland:
Awesome.

Jeff Chin:
I heard about these, I don't know, cremation pods or whatever, where they add these nutrients and seeds and whatnot, and so you can be buried and become a new form of life. I just think that's the coolest little bit of symbolism, and it's not quite so morbid like a gravestone. I always liked that.

Patrick Rauland:
That's great. Yeah, and I totally agree. I've heard about those. I think I've heard Seedpod, I've heard Fungal Suits. There's all sorts of weird stuff like that to help you turn into a tree.

Patrick Rauland:
All right, off to a great start here. Last lightning round question, is what's a game you play with someone every single time at a convention?

Jeff Chin:
Keeping with the theme from the first question, I'm a huge Scythe fan, if you can't tell. Every year at Gen Con we try and get together with a group and play a big game of Scythe. We had a big seven player game going this past Gen Con. We actually didn't know that the, I think it's the Rusviet-Industrial combination is banned now because it was too powerful. And so I was that faction and ended the game very quickly, much to everyone's disappointment. Everyone was expecting this all night long, epic battle, and then the game ended before people could even encounter each other's factions.

Patrick Rauland:
Oh wow, yeah. I've only played Scythe a handful of times, but do you have a favorite expansion or just base Scythe?

Jeff Chin:
We always play with, we add in the sixth and seventh factions. Usually we're not too crazy about using the airships. I did play through The Rise of Fenris campaign, which is a fun twist on it and lets you customize all your different Mac upgrades and stuff, so that was really cool.

Patrick Rauland:
Yeah, the reason I was asking is I had a friend who really enjoyed The Rise of Fenris expansion campaign, whatever you want to call it. I was curious if you had played it. Cool. Great to hear.

How Did You Get Into Board Games & Board Game Design?

Patrick Rauland:
Let me get into the first real question here. How did you get into board games and board game design?

Jeff Chin:
Good question. I got into board games probably when I was maybe 18. My brother, for Christmas, got me the Settlers of Catan and my family got absolutely obsessed with it and played that game way more than any group should play a single game. Talking hundreds and hundreds of play throughs, and we were just absolutely obsessed. It wasn't until sometime later, realized there is this whole board game Renaissance going on, this hobby is huge, and evolved my game tastes from there. But that was definitely my gateway game into the hobby.

Jeff Chin:
As far as game design, I used to play a lot of Dungeons & Dragons, specifically as the dungeon master. I would create my own original campaigns that would often go for many, many years long, we would be running these same adventures. The people in my campaign really enjoyed it and some people were asking like, “Oh, you should turn these campaigns into books and sell them or something.” I started to realize there are some fun experiences that happened in these campaigns, are there are ways of reproducing those experiences for other people that want to? And then coinciding with my new-found board game hobby, realized you can make just short 30 minute, hour long experiences. It doesn't have to be this multi-year adventure, but that seemed like a really cool way to create a reproducible fun game experience for people.

How Do You Prototype and Manufacture Unique Components?

Patrick Rauland:
Very cool. So let me get into some of the questions that I wrote up for you. And let me start with the reason we're chatting is because I saw your game, Canvas, on Kickstarter, and I reached out because it looks gorgeous. So listeners, I will have a link in the show notes, go check out the Kickstarter. It should still be live when this episode launches, maybe a week or so left. So feel free to check it out. It looks fantastic.

Let me just start, so Canvas is this game that has these transparent cards and you layer them on top of … I'm just giving listeners an understanding here so we can talk about the game. But you layer them on top of each other so that you're making an image.

My first question, Jeff, is when you have really unique components, in this case, they look like, they're also extra large, they look like extra large transparent cards that all need to fit together in a certain way. How do you work with unique components? Both from a … I think I want to ask this in two ways. Maybe first, how do you prototype? But also, how do you talk about manufacturing really unique components?

Jeff Chin:
Yeah, that's a good question because this game was especially difficult to prototype. It's hard to simulate that transparent effect without going through this whole complicated manufacturing process. So where we started, was just on printed, regular computer paper. I was hand-cutting out little tabs at the bottom. So on the canvas cards, there's a sequence of icons on the bottom of each card. There's five little slots and each card is going to have icons in two of those five slots. So by cutting away the three slots that are supposed to be transparent, so you can see down to the bottom layers, you can layer these computer paper cards together and still see what's in the cutaway tabs spots. So we played with that kind of prototype for a long time.

Eventually, we wanted to give playtesters more a sense of how the game would actually feel with transparent cards. So we started printing the game on clear acetone sheets, those sheets that back when I was in school, they would put them on the overhead projector. So you can print right on those, but they get a little sticky. So it's still a complicated process because we had to sticker the backs of the icons because they're still too translucent to actually cover anything, and then the cards are themselves a little sticky when you mess with them too much, then we had to sleeve all of those. So it was an expensive and elaborate process as opposed to most of our game design.

But then for the later versions, once we really had everything set in place, we actually reached out to our manufacturer, we're rolling with Panda Games Manufacturing, and so we signed with [inaudible 00:09:30] time to, ahead of the campaign, to help us out with the prototyping process. So we have an actual pre-production copy of the cards that we've been playtesting with a little bit. So we don't usually do that step ahead of a Kickstarter campaign. And if you're not sure you're going to get funded, that could be a very risky move to take. But we felt really strongly about this game, and so we went ahead with getting some more high quality versions of the game made for prototyping purposes.

Can You Print Transparent Cards at Home?

Patrick Rauland:
Yeah. So let me go back to prototyping for a second. So these acetone sheets, is that something you can print out on your home printer or is that something you have to go to a FedEx, Kinko's, or is it even more specialized than that?

Jeff Chin:
Yeah, we were just printing those on our home printers.

Patrick Rauland:
I had no idea you could print on acetone sheets on your home printer. That is super useful to know. So let me go into … So part of the game with Canvas, I mean, is the game looks it's literally about making, painting on a canvas, and there's in addition to the tabs at the bottom of the cards, which look like they're for getting icons, there's also just really pretty illustrations at the top of the page, and that's how everything layers very nicely.

How Important are Illustrations in an Art Themed Game?

Patrick Rauland:
When did that come in? Could you play this game just with icons and then add the art later and maybe use placeholder art in the meantime? Or for a game like this, where the theme is art, how important is the art and when did you actually create it?

Jeff Chin:
Yeah, like at the start of all of our prototyping processes, we began with no art, just some placeholder images. I think the very first version just had some free vector thing of a blanket easel. Just to be just to imply like, “Hey, this is about painting.” There wasn't even anything on the easel. But like you said, it is important for players to get a sense of the theme, especially in a game that's about illustrations. It's tough to give people an idea of the feeling of the game without it.

But at the same time, I don't like to put in too detailed of art into prototypes too early. I do feel like when designers jump the gun and get their art made ahead of time, one, as a designer, you tend to get married to certain things that you shouldn't be yet, right? Maybe you decide “Oh, the best size for the card … Or maybe we don't even need this component, but I've already illustrated it so now we're going to keep it.” So I don't like to fall into that trap too early. So that's one reason to not begin the art phase too early.

But then the other side of that, is a lot of times playtesters are afraid to give full, honest feedback when games look too close to finished. If you have all your artwork done, I've noticed people tend to not want to rip into things too much thinking that everything is done and permanent. And so they'll only give very small, superficial feedback instead of overhaul type of … Like, “What if you totally got rid of this market system and did something else?” You know?

Patrick Rauland:
Yeah.

Jeff Chin:
People aren't willing to give that note to something that's so close to being finished.

Patrick Rauland:
That's really interesting. I don't know if I've noticed that, but as you say it, it makes sense to me that if you, yeah, if your game looks like it's almost done, they're not going to, they're only going to suggest tweaks like, “Oh, this should be three power instead of two power,” instead of giving you bigger changes. Interesting. I hadn't really thought about that.

Jeff Chin:
Exactly.

When Should You Create Art (for Games Where Art is Extra Important)?

Patrick Rauland:
So let me ask you, just in a game where, maybe in a game where the visual's important, when should you create art for those types of games? Because I do think in your game the visuals are important, and that's part of the joy, I imagine, of playing the game. But as you said, you can't create it too early because then you don't want to change it, people don't want to give you feedback, but also the visuals are important. So when do you create it for games that need it?

Jeff Chin:
Yeah. For Canvas, they were so important. Just this whole concept of layering the pieces of illustrations to create a full composition, we didn't even know beforehand if that was going to work. We needed to actually prototype the artwork to make sure that our concept would make sense and it wouldn't just look like images layered on top of each other and it just looks like a crazy mess. How do you make that look like an appealing composition every time?

So for the sake of Canvas, we did have to get into the art design stage a little earlier than we would for most games. We started with a more abstract theme, a little less representational thinking that would make the artwork work more often. And then we debated the appeal of abstract, modern art to a more general audience. That's kind of where we ultimately deviated from that path to do more like this surreal, painterly, but representational style. So there was a lot of prototyping involved in trying to get these different images to always line up in an appealing way.

And what that came down to, was each of the five slots at the bottom of the card, the icons that you're collecting, also correspond to the location of the illustration on the card. So for example, if you have an icon in the lower left, or sorry, on the far left of the row of icons, that piece of the illustration will partially overlap the top left of the painting. So what that effectively does is, as a player, I'm incentivized to not take multiple of the same slot, or at least not do that so often. And my illustrations are less likely to create this muddy, triple layer of elements all in one corner of the painting

Patrick Rauland:
Yeah. Cool. I like that you … That makes total sense. I, of course, I don't know what the icons mean right now, but yeah, there's these five icon slots, and if you correlate the art in the cards with the icon slots, then you can incentivize players to basically paint the whole canvas as part of the game. Very cool.

How Did You Design the Box?

Patrick Rauland:
So let me move on to the, just the campaign, because I'm also interested in the campaign and this campaign page is gorgeous. The video's gorgeous. The first thing I want to talk about actually, is I always want to do something different with packaging, and I just want to have a thing that makes my game feel different. One of the things I think you did spectacularly is there's just this little tiny feature where you basically put a hole in the back of the box and it allows you to hang the box on the wall. And because the front cover of your game is this beautiful painting, which is something you can create it in the game, it doesn't have a giant logo on it, you can actually hang the game on your wall.

So where do cool, new, unique ideas like that come from for packaging and whatnot?

Jeff Chin:
That idea I have to give full credit to my buddy, Rusty Scioscia, he's the designer of Taco Ninja Adventure. Super creative, really great designer. He had this idea for hanging a board game on the wall. That was just the coolest thing I've ever heard and it absolutely fit Canvas, a game about painting on a canvas and hanging it on your wall. It was just a match made in heaven for that packaging design and this particular game.

Jeff Chin:
I think packaging design is really important for selling a product. It makes me think of my cousin, Alex Chin, who's the head of Seasons Playing Cards, and he's just a master craft of packaging design, and creating really elegant playing card boxes and creative ways of looking at packaging and have it, giving it a function beyond containing your components. For example, he had a box where when you take the cards out, it has this one way mirror, little plastic sheet in front of it, and it creates this infinity hallway that looks like this ornate, old, cathedral type of building, and that theme resounds through the whole cards. I just love stuff like that. Just little things that make your packaging stand out from the herd of thousands and thousands of games.

How Expensive is a Unique Box?

Patrick Rauland:
Yeah. So let me ask you two follow ups here. The first, is just from a manufacturing point of view, this doesn't double the cost of the box. Is this a pretty small tweak for manufacturing or was it a larger modification?

Jeff Chin:
It's a little bit extra. Not because of the hole in the box, but more so because I had to design the box to pull out like a drawer instead of a standard lid and tray. The reason for that is it was just a standard two-piece box, when you hang that up on the wall, if the components lean against the lid, they would push the lid right off the wall. So by making it a drawer, when you hang it up, the drawer is on the top part of the box and it's effectively like the tray of a box sitting in a bucket kind of thing. There's no way that's going to jump out. But the extra production cost is just in that drawer box design because it is a little bit more material and it's not standard.

Patrick Rauland:
Yeah. So it's good to know it's not a huge cost. The other thing, the other followup is, I don't know any games that don't have their name on the front. Does that worry you? Or is that maybe even, theoretically if this ever got into retail stores, maybe that even help you, right? Being the one game that doesn't have a name on the front. Did you have discussions about it?

Jeff Chin:
Oh yeah, we had … Andrew, my co-designer and I had so many discussions and just going back and forth on it. I mocked up version after version with different placements of the logo, versions without the logo, and more traditional, big center logo in the middle. Ultimately, we thought if someone's going to hang on the wall, you cannot put the logo on it. That destroys the whole image. It destroys that whole packaging gimmick. So we decided to not go with that.

But yeah, you make a really good point about the retail aspect of it, and we discussed that too. Might be a little bit of a risk, but we hoped that maybe if there's one box on the shelf that's unlabeled, does that just make you more likely to look at it because you're, “What is this? How come this box looks [inaudible 00:21:36]?” So it could backfire, it could work. I'm not sure how many other games have tried to do the no branding on the cover before, but I'm curious to see how it turns out.

Patrick Rauland:
I mean, I guess this is your sixth Kickstarter, so you kind of know what works, and it sounds like this is an experiment and you're just willing to roll the dice and see what happens.

Jeff Chin:
Yeah. To be honest, such a huge portion of our sales come from Kickstarter and online sales. We're still a small publishing company, and maybe Canvas will be the exception for us, but we haven't had a huge presence in retail stores so far. So our focus has been like, “How do we make our products look the best in an online format?” So we'll see how it plays out for the retail market, but yeah, our focus has always just been on making a really elegant looking product for Kickstarter backers, for online shoppers.

What's Something You Learned From Your Early Kickstarter Campaigns?

Patrick Rauland:
Awesome. Very cool. So let me go into just Kickstarter because anyone who's done more than one or two Kickstarter campaigns, I'm always curious, this is your sixth one, what is something you learned from one of your first couple of campaigns? What is something that you've changed about your Kickstarter process in the last, since you started?

Jeff Chin:
Yeah, for the After Nova campaign, we tried to switch things up and do an all social goal system instead of a monetary stretch goal system. And people didn't like that. People demanded stretch goals pretty unanimously. So we ended up caving and switching that campaign midway to go back to a stretch goal system. We've been very receptive to whatever backers want to see.

I think that's part of the Kickstarter experience, is just listening and letting people be part of the creation of that product. That's part of the amazing thing that Kickstarter can do, that other platforms aren't really designed for. Everyone gets their voice before the game is even made. That's one of the reasons why someone might back a product before it's on the market. As we've gone, the changes that we've made have largely been based on backer feedback.

Patrick Rauland:
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And speaking of backers and different levels, one of the other things I noticed is, and this is something that I'm thinking a lot more about, is your game is actually pretty affordable, right? It's not a game with 500 miniatures that costs a thousand dollars and $200 to ship to you. But it's a pretty light, small game. I think the starting pledge is $28. But then you also have … One of the things that you did well is you have an expansion for about 10 bucks, or then you have premium components, which is maybe 15 bucks. And of course you can get the expansion and the premium components for, I think, roughly $20 more than the original game.

How Important is the Premium Game in a Kickstarter Campaign?

Patrick Rauland:
How well has having a premium version of the game worked out for you? Because at least on this campaign, it looks like it's working very well with most people getting this premium version.

Jeff Chin:
Yeah. I would say in every campaign we've run, the more deluxe version of the game has always been our top selling item. It's always, it tends to be that second tier is the very popular one. [inaudible 00:25:32] your base game, then you tack on a little something extra and maybe have more beyond that. Usually it tends to be that second reward tier is the sweet spot where people are willing to extend their budgets a little bit to get that one extra Kickstarter exclusive or something.

And that tends to be a larger profit margin item as well. When we design our reward tiers, and I'm sure all creators follow this pattern of each reward tier should give you a larger profit margin, because if it doesn't, I'm not [inaudible 00:26:08] offering it. So any way to entice backers to step up the ladder just little by little can be a great reward tier strategy.

What's a White Whale of Game Design?

Patrick Rauland:
Awesome. Is there something … So heard a good amount about Canvas and your Kickstarter and premium products and packaging. Going back to game design, is there a white whale? Is there a thing that you and maybe your co-designer I've been trying to work on for a while and you just haven't been able to figure it out yet?

Jeff Chin:
Yeah. I'm sure this is true of many game designers, but we we've tried creating legacy or campaign games a number of times. It is so hard, man. I had the [inaudible 00:27:02] legacy, I love playing The Rise of Fenris, Scythe, campaign. But man, I have to give so much credit to designers that can create this ongoing, changing experience. It's so impressive and so difficult to do. We haven't been able to crack that one yet. But I mean, we've probably tried two or three times to just create that type of feeling in a game. I don't know. That's a difficult one. Mad props to people who can do that.

Patrick Rauland:
Yeah. I also can't imagine a campaign game. I think I tend to design slightly smaller games, and I definitely can't imagine a campaign game for a tiny little thing. So let me know when you figure that out.

What Resource Would You Recommend to Aspiring Game Designers?

Patrick Rauland:
So let me move on to some of these last questions here. You've been doing this for awhile, what is a resource, and by resource, I mean something that's free or pretty cheap, that you would recommend to another indie game designer?

Jeff Chin:
There's a prototyping tool called NANdeck. If you're a little bit coding-minded, it's a really great tool where you can just turn Excel spreadsheets into printed out card layouts. And it'll just … You assign each field to a space on this card, you hit print, and it will create a PDF with everything all laid out uniformly. It's a really excellent tool that my co-designer Andrew introduced me to. It's not too difficult to get the hang of if you have even some basic HTML experience or something. But it does have a visual editor too, if you're not so coding-minded, where it lets you drag and drop, and move stuff around in more physical space as well.

And that's totally free. I highly recommend that to any designers who are making games with a lot of cards. It just helps you iterate so quickly. Instead of having to go in and edit each card, if I just need to up the power of every single card by one, you can just do that in your spreadsheet, hit print and your prototype will be ready to go.

Patrick Rauland:
Yeah, I need to give NANdeck a try. I mean, I've heard it a few times. I need to give it a try because it sounds very, very useful.

What's the Best Money You've Spent?

Patrick Rauland:
How about this, what is the best money you've spent as a game designer? And just to clarify that, what is worth every single cent that you've spent?

Jeff Chin:
That's a good question. I think the illustrators we've found have added so much to the game that I couldn't myself. I'm a little bit of an illustrator. I did the illustrations for our earlier games, and also for Crypt. But Luan Huynh, who's doing the art for Canvas, Jordan Peters, who did the art for Cosmocracy, Ben Ortiz did the art for After Nova, those guys are on another level. I appreciate them so much for helping out with our illustration projects. To me, that is the best money spent.

Patrick Rauland:
So I mean, for me to reiterate that, would you say top dollar illustration, you know what I mean? Like really paying for the best of the best?

Jeff Chin:
There's a lot of illustrators. There's Reddit communities filled with illustrators that would love to jump on projects. I guess what I'm trying to say, is paying top dollar for a very notable illustrator, while it might be great to have a really famous artist attached to your game, and I think that could do [inaudible 00:31:01] well, I think if you are on more of a budget, there are tons and tons of super talented artists out there that can do what you're looking for at an affordable price.

What Does Success Look Like?

Patrick Rauland:
Got it. Cool. And then, what does success in the board game world look like to you?

Jeff Chin:
I guess I would call being a successful designer is like being able to do it as your full-time gig, I think. For a long time it was just a passion project, hobby thing for me and Andrew, something we would just do after work. We were roommates together at the time, so every day after work we would get together, work on our games. But we didn't really feel like we had a successful game publishing company until Crypt, and following that campaign, we were able to take our venture full-time.

Jeff Chin:
That was just a dream come true for us. We're so appreciative of the opportunity to be able to do that. Being able to work with just my best friend, and managing our own company, not having to work for anyone else and doing what I love full-time, to me, that feels like success.

Would You Like to Keep Publishing on Kickstarter or go Through Traditional Publishing Channels?

Patrick Rauland:
Well, let me ask you this. It seems like you you've been rocking Kickstarter and you have a couple of games and some retailers are backing some of your projects. Do you want to keep launching on Kickstarter or do you want to go more into traditional publishing, where you work with distributors and go into retail and stuff like that? Do you have a preference of those two options?

Jeff Chin:
Our business model has been the Kickstarter model for the entire time we've been a publishing company, and it's done really well for us. It's tricky to imagine moving to a more traditional publishing model at this point, while the Kickstarter model is working. I mean, it does make you wonder though, how long the Kickstarter phase will go on for. Obviously nothing lasts forever, internet culture changes. And so at a certain point, there might be a new platform and we'll have to be willing and ready to adapt if and when that happens.

Overrated / Underrated Game

Patrick Rauland:
Okay. So I like to end my show with a game called Overrated/Underrated. Now, I know from chatting to you ahead of time that you don't know what this is, so let me explain it to you and any listeners who haven't heard it before.

I'm going to give you a word or phrase like “cell phones” and then you can say, if you think they're overrated or underrated, and then give me a sentence why. So you might say, “Phones are underrated …” Or let's go with, “Phones are overrated because they fritter away your time.” Something like that. Does that make sense?

Jeff Chin:
Sure.

Patrick Rauland:
All right. So first one, pickup-and-deliver games. So any sort of game where you're moving around and picking up resources and dropping them off somewhere else on the board. Overrated or underrated?

Jeff Chin:
I think I'll say overrated because I can't say this … No, I was going to say I can't think of a great pickup-and-deliver game that I just absolutely love that nailed the strategy, but now I'm going to change that and say I do love Century: Eastern Wonders. That's probably a top game of mine, now that I think about it. And that is technically a pickup-and-deliver game.

Jeff Chin:
I would say though, that as a mechanism, pickup-and-deliver itself isn't inherently something fascinating to me. The reason I like that Eastern Wonders game is not because of the pickup-and-deliver aspect of it, it's the creative trading market system, but it has pickup-and-deliver. So yeah, I would say a little overrated as far as clever game mechanisms go.

Patrick Rauland:
Perfect. Let's go with black light. Overrated or underrated? I'm just going to leave it wide open.

Jeff Chin:
Black light?

Patrick Rauland:
Yeah.

Jeff Chin:
I'm going to say black lights are underrated, and I'm going to stick with the game design talk here. I was thinking about how could you use black lights in games, and it made me think about using invisible ink and stuff. I wonder if there's some clever way you could use black lights in a really fun maybe mystery style game. I don't know. I think it's an underutilized tool that could do a lot more.

Patrick Rauland:
Cool. I dig it. And then let's go with the messaging system built into BoardGameGeek. Overrated or underrated?

Jeff Chin:
That's hard to say. I mean, I don't think … BGG has always been a really old-school style design just on their webpage and all that. So I don't think anyone's considering it's a very highly sophisticated system, so it'd be hard to call it … I don't know. I feel like it is what it is. It's rated probably exactly where it should be. It's kind of just like a [inaudible 00:36:22] system. I'll [inaudible 00:36:26] that spectrum.

Patrick Rauland:
Okay. All right. And then the last one, Summer Olympics. Overrated, underrated?

Jeff Chin:
That's tough. I've never been the biggest Olympics follower ever. So I would say, I guess I'd have to say overrated just because I would say the general popularity of it is above my personal enjoyment of Summer Olympic sports.

Wrap Up

Patrick Rauland:
Perfect. That's totally good. Awesome. Jeff, thank you so much for being on the show.

Jeff Chin:
Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. This was a really good time. Appreciate you reaching out and I'm always happy to talk game design.

Patrick Rauland:
Good. Where can people find you and your games online?

Jeff Chin:
Yeah, you can follow along with our game design process on the Road to Infamy Games Page on Facebook, or on R2i Games on Instagram. We also have a mailing list that you can sign up for at roadtoinfamy.com. We send out free print-and-plays and just give general updates about what we're working on. We like to share everything about our design process with our followers. So if that's something that's interesting to you, please follow along.

Patrick Rauland:
Fantastic. And listeners, if you liked this podcast, please leave us a review on iTunes. If you leave a review, Jeff said he would help you invent ultraviolet paints so you can do your own awesome canvas painting. And then lastly, I just want to share that I'm still sharing progress for all my games on Patreon. Actually in the next … Well, this will … As I'm recording this, it'll be a couple of days from now, but as this is released a week or two later, it'll already be on Patreon, but I have a new print-and-play that I just made for a contest, so I'll be sharing that on there. So feel free to follow along with what I'm doing and follow my progress. And also, I'm happy to give you guys advice.

Patrick Rauland:
So if you want to see what I'm doing, check out Patreon, and then you can visit the site, indieboardgamedesigners.com. You can follow me on Twitter and BoardGameGeek. I am @BFTrick on both platforms. That is B, as in board game, F, as in fun, and trick as in trick-taking games. Until next time everyone, happy designing. Bye-bye.