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Patrick: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Indie Board Game Designers podcast, where I sit down with a different independent game designer every single week, and we talk about their experience in game design and the lessons they've learned along the way. My name is Patrick Rauland, and today I'm going to be talking with David Hayes, who designed Iron Cauldron with me back in Episode 26, the Roll and Write Game Jam episode.

So, David and I are going to be getting into– I think I would call David a games enthusiast, and a game designer dabbler. As in, someone who loves games but doesn't design them very often. He basically designed a game because I bugged him to design a game, so today, I want to get into that aspect of game design, where you don't have to do it super hardcore all the time. With that introduction, David, welcome to the show.

David: Thank you. It's good to be here.

Introduction

Patrick: I know you, we're in the same professional space, and we've also played games together and hung out together, but the audience doesn't. I'm going to introduce you to them via some lightning round questions. All right?

David: Absolutely.

Patrick: All right. This is a lightning round, so favorite coffee bean?

David: I was just actually thinking about this one, having seen the question in advance, and I had this morning a Pablo Guerrera [inaudible] coffee from Columbia. It is absurdly expensive, it's the kind of thing you buy as a treat. But my wife and I had our anniversary just a few days ago, so I'm enjoying that.

Patrick: Congrats on your anniversary, also.

David: Thank you.

Patrick: OK, so since I know nothing about coffee, David, is this like–? Just give me a ballpark. How much more expensive is this than like a regular bean? Like, four times more expensive? Ten times?

David: I believe this coffee was $25 dollars for six ounces, and an average bag of coffee you buy at a grocery stores is like $7 dollars for 12 ounces. This is like four times, five times, 10 times the price. I can't do that math in my head real quick, but it's more expensive for sure.

Patrick: Got it cool. What is your favorite quarantine activity?

David: I've been enjoying board games. My wife and I started this thing where every Tuesday and Friday morning because she's a morning gamer, which is weird. But I'll take what I can get, and we play a game. Just this morning, we were playing Viticulture, and I lost at the last minute with a silly card, but it was very fun to play a game.

Patrick: That's great. So, this is a new routine then that you've developed?

David: Yes, because we couldn't go anywhere, and I couldn't get physical board games on with anyone she was willing to try it. Slowly she's joined me in enjoying more complex games, which is also very fun.

Patrick: That's very exciting. I have not, with my fiancee, I have not figured out how to get her to enjoy more complex games yet. Do you have any advice there, David?

David: Yeah. The way we did it was I picked themes that she liked. We have this game Lotus, she's into flowers, and so am I, and Lotus was a good entry-level game. It's not very complicated, and you make flowers– If people aren't familiar with it, you make flowers collectively in a garden that you're competing on. It's like some other game I've played recently, but I forget the name of that one. But some theme ties, the things she liked, that was super helpful.

Then slowly, she just was– Splendor was an important gateway into thinking strategically in games, but she's been playing Orleans and Castles of Burgundy, which aren't the most complicated games of all time, but I would rate them as way more complicated than people are used to. It was more of a slow learning process for her, but if your goals aren't that complicated, I think giving people a thematic tie and making sure that you teach a board game well, which is a whole other skill and conversation we could get into, I'm sure, is all I think it takes. You just really have to find the right game for people.

Patrick: Yes. I'm a big proponent of finding the right game for the right group, and that's one of my favorite things to do, David. To find or to be the guy who has enough game knowledge, not just to show you my favorite games, but to find your favorite game for you.

David: Yes, absolutely. We share that goal. I want to tell someone who's like, “I like Yahtzee a lot” about a new game that they should try, rather than tell them about my favorite game, which they really shouldn't try as their first effort.

Patrick: I love it, and I totally agree with you on teaching a game. There's a whole skill set around that, and I can't even get into that right now. OK, sorry, I got so distracted. Last lightning round question, what is a game you play with someone every single time at a convention? Like if you're exhausted at the end of the day, but someone says, “One more game of this.” What's that game?

David: That's a tough question. Setting aside complicated games because I'd be tired at the end of the day, I'm looking around my office, which is where I keep my board games. I would always play 6 nimmt! It is a very light, quick game with just enough skill to be challenging, but where you cannot win only with skill. There is a definite luck factor, so it's a nice, easy capper to everything, and it takes maybe 20 minutes. You can get a big group together to end the day on it, so that's what I would pick.

How did you get into board games?

Patrick: I like it. All right, so first real question is, how did you get into board games? Then I normally ask, “How did you get into board game design?” But I'll separate that into a separate question. So for right now, just how did you get into board games?

David: I was into Candyland when I was little. I remember cheating at Candyland for sure. I think that's a rite of passage because that's a game that's very easy to cheat at. But we played a fair amount of American board games when I was a kid, and it was more of a slow process where personally I find games very fun as a family activity. There are many topics, especially as I've gotten older that I'd rather just not talk to my parents about. Politics, for example.

But we can safely play a board game together and not get too distracted by that kind of stuff, so over time we had some family friends who taught us Ticket to Ride, and– I'm trying to remember what other games are from that era. Catan, that kind of stuff, and that was the gateway for me into “Maybe I should check this out.” I made some mistakes getting into board games, I would say. Definitely, as a newbie, don't go on to BoardGameGeek and get the top game.

Patrick: Yes.

David: Or one of the top games, because you will be so intimidated. I did that with Agricola, which I still think is a very fun, good game, but it is not a good game to be the third game you ever learn how to play because you will be swamped in complexity and rules. Basically, it was a gradual process, and I love it as a social activity that doesn't require a ton of this introvert. Where there's something to do to make lulls in the conversation natural and easy.

Patrick: I totally agree with you, David. It's funny that I also use board games as a way to hang out with people.

David: Yes.

Patrick: It's like, “Let's play board games.” And really, I just want to hang out with people and have a chat, and it's a nice casual way to say, “Let's have a conversation for two hours while doing something else in the background.”

David: Absolutely. I mean, this is the reason of coffee dates and alcohol. All of them are just excuses to get together with people and hang out. Board games are one of my favorites for that because it doesn't involve alcohol or coffee, which I wasn't into until two or three years ago.

Patrick: OK, so let me go into the game design aspect here. Just remind me if I get something wrong here, but there was– I heard about this game design jam called the Roll and Write Game Design Jam. Again, episode 26, I'll have a link for it in the show notes. It was basically a ten-day– I won't go into what a game jam is, but it's basically a ten-day “Contest” for lack of a better word. There are certain criteria, you have to use this many dice or this many colors, and you can use pieces of paper, and you can use one side, both sides, all this stuff.

I really wanted to do a game jam, and David, I think what happened is there was a board game convention in town that weekend, and we were there together. We played some board games, and I was just pestering you with ideas, I was just like “What about this? What about this? What about this?” Eventually, you were so– I basically got you so invested that you joined me and we became co-designers on this game. Does that seem about right?

David: Yeah, we were at B-Con in Denver, and we actually, I think it was at that point we went to dinner, took a break from actually playing games, and went to dinner. We started talking at length about, “We could do this theme or that theme for your game jam,” and I was like, “OK. I will join this effort.” Because I never really even thought about game design until you did. I've had some friends who are like, “I'm trying to design a game.” But that was the extent to which I ever entertained the thought of doing it. It was, “Would I like that?” And in general, my conclusion had been, and to some extent still is, “I like playing games a lot.”

What was it like to design a board game casually?

Patrick: OK, great. So what was it like to design a board game? And I'm just going to say “Casually,” because– Let me go into a couple of sub-questions. I think for me I'm like, “Great. Here's a new version, play test.” And like, “Was that fun? Did you get something out of it? Are you proud of it?” Where did you land?

David: I think it was fun, for sure. I think one thing that I've realized I like in the last few years is collaboratively creating, so that part of this was very fun for me. But I was thinking as I played Viticulture this morning, “Do I want to make a game like this?” And I think I'm too intimidated by the complexities of a big game like that, but a roll and write was more like, “I can tackle this.” And ten play tests of that game, or probably what we managed to get in before the game jam ended, and that was manageable in a way that if someone had said “Let's go design something like Seven Wonders,” I would have been like, “Heck no.”

How do you think Iron Cauldron came out in the end?

Patrick: So, we designed a game called Iron Cauldron, and it's basically Iron Chef but for witches. So the dice, there's red dice and blue dice and yellow dice or green dice? One of them, I can't remember. And another color dice, and you can combine them in cool ways, and certain potions require this many red– Like a red three. And this one requires a green five, all that stuff. But how did you–? How about this, let me ask you this question. Are you ever going to play Iron Cauldron? Like, the game?

David: Oh, gosh. We definitely played it a few times, I have lost track of the scoresheet, which are a core part of the game, so I haven't tried to play it since. Maybe I should, though, I think it would be fun to bring it out. I do have a friend here in Fort Collins who has had a few games published, and he's showed me a few of his games. Now I'm like, “This is fun,” to get to play a game that you can have some impact on or affect the direction it goes. But I haven't played it since we put it into the– Since we submitted it, I don't think I've played it since. I would think about breaking it out again.

Now that you've designed a game, has your perspective on anything game-wise changed?

Patrick: So, David, I've been rearranging stuff in my house and moving stuff in, and because of that, I keep seeing it. It's on top of one of my games, and can just see this stack of papers that's basically the Iron Cauldron. I'm like, “I should play that again. It was really fun.” There's a fun thing where when you complete potions, this stuff happens. So let me ask you this, David, now that you've designed a game, has your perspective on anything game-wise changed? As an example, do you play games now, and you're like, “I really wish this would be different.” Like, has it changed your perspective at all?

David: That's an interesting question. I think somewhat. I've always been, let's say, a thoughtful and critical person. I definitely have opinions about “This mechanic was silly” in some of the games I play. In general, I'm impressed by the games I play. But part of that's because I studiously study reviews before I purchase the random game on the Target shelf, so I don't end up with a lot of aggressively bad games unless I am at a friend's house and ask to play Cards Against Humanity or something.

In some ways, it has made me more thoughtful about particular mechanics, one of the things that I think as one becomes a game designer, you start to think more about the mechanics that make up a game and less about the theming that makes up a game. Certainly, I have games on my shelves where the theme is barely evident as you play the game, it's like a side effect. But you really, I think, especially in the process of designing a game, you're forced at the beginning to just deal in the mechanics. “When I have these many things I do this,” because unless you're—

I guess I certainly would not be, and Patrick, I remember playtesting Fry Thief early on in its design for you. I loved the art of making a poor, ugly version of that game where I got to make bad looking french fries and bad looking ketchups. But in that form, it is like, “Are these mechanics good in a way that when I play a game that is something I do– I would say that I do think harder about this mechanic, “Is it interesting or not?” As opposed to, “Does this does this art, please me?” Or something like that.

Patrick: OK. So you're more mechanics-focused now, and maybe you can separate mechanics from theme a little bit better.

David: Yes, I think so.

Patrick: I dig that. I think one of the reasons that happens is, I think, because as an example, our dinner conversation at B-Con. You have to talk about the mechanics, and you have to use language to talk about mechanics, instead of just “The game was fun.” You can play a new game with someone and say, “How did you like it?” “I really liked it. It was close at the end.” OK, that's a totally valid opinion. I'm going to make fun of myself a little bit here when it comes to movies, I'm very much like “It was good. Action was entertaining and the comedy was great.” I don't have a very sophisticated viewpoint when it comes to watching movies. Like, every Marvel movie that comes out, I'm like, “It was good.” “How does it rank next to the other ones, Patrick?” “It was good.”

David: Right.

Patrick: I'm making fun of myself there a little bit just to contrast it to board games where I can say, “The first player advantage seems really strong in this game because they could choose anything, and then the second the second player never had an opportunity to get what they wanted. That created this weird dynamic–” Like, I have the language and the nuance to talk about it. It's cool to hear that you're picking up some of that because you're forced to talk that way when you're designing your own game.

David: Absolutely, and thinking about the mechanics, I do think anything you spend more time on, you start to pick up nuances. I totally agree with like, if someone asks me to think critically about wine, for example, I'm like, “It tasted like wine.” That's about the end of my wine knowledge. “Grapey, very grapey.” I don't get into the complexity of “It aged too long in an oak barrel.” I don't know what wines are in oak. Some of them taste different, I guess, so I definitely agree that the longer you spend with something like that, the more nuanced of opinion you have.

One of the things that I think is true is people's opinions about games become richer if they tried to design them, and if they don't, some of my favorite board game designers are definitely game design– Or, sorry. My favorite board game reviewers are themselves designers of games because that gives you a more complete understanding of what you like and don't like.

Since designing a game, have you thought more about customizing a game or have you tweaked rules in games?

Patrick: I dig that. So, I know you and your wife like Santorini. That's one of those games where the core of the game is very simple. It's like, “Move. Add on to a building and climb up a building.” You know what I mean? There's very basic things in that game, but then there's a very cool– Again, just for people who haven't played this, it's a very simple and abstract-style game. But there are very cool variable player powers, and I'm wondering, David, have you ever thought about–?

Since designing a game, have you thought more about customizing a game? Maybe even house-ruling it, where it's like “We don't play with that player power anymore because it's broken,” or “We've tweaked this variable player power in Santorini so now it works slightly differently, because we thought it was too weak or too powerful.” Have you tweaked rules in games?

David: That's such an interesting question, and it gets into personality type, I think, in that no, not a ton. But I am a person– Both my wife and I are people who like rules and benefit from clear clarity about rules, so I most frequently refer back to the rule book.

But I would say that there have been certain rules and games that I'm a little more willing to flex on because I genuinely think, “That's actually a better experience to give you three options rather than a random card,” for example. So I do a little bit more of that flexibly, but I play board games with people who are much more eager to make modifications to games than I am. Part of it comes down to the way that I am a rule follower and a purist rather than having designed games or not.

What is the right way to engage with a board game enthusiast who might dabble in game design?

Patrick: I get that. So let's say, I want to ask you two more questions here, one on your dream mechanics, but let me get to that in a minute. I think the question I want to ask before that is, let's say someone else listening to this has their board game enthusiast friend. How would they–?

What is the right way to engage with a board game enthusiast who might dabble in game design? Would it be smarter for me, David, to bug you to play test games? Or is it better for me to get in there early and ideate with you? Or, is it that I should talk about–? Or, should I just talk mechanics with you and then slap on a theme later? What is the right way to engage with a board game enthusiast who might dabble in game design?

David: That's a very interesting question. I think one of the things that came to mind with what we were talking about earlier, finding a person's favorite game. I think a person's favorite way to be engaged on this would vary a great deal person to person. I can think of people I play board games with who would love to come up with thematic overlays on a set of mechanics, and I can think of other people who would only want to give you feedback on whether or not the mechanics of the game were good because they don't care about theme at all.

They're just in it for the basic strategy parts of it, so I think it varies a lot person to person in the same way that what board game you like most comes into play. I do think that for us, the way that you convinced me was that I had play tested Fry Thief a few times and thought it was fun and interesting to play a game in its earlier phases and have some impact just by my feedback to you. Like, “We thought this was too powerful or not very interesting,” and that that had an impact. So then when you were like, “I'm doing this game jam,” I was like, “That's very interesting. I wonder what that's like?”

I also thought that the game jam was if one were trying to convince me to be into designing board games, I think you would– Engaging around something that is inherently time-limited might be helpful because that constraint makes the problem less intimidating. If I have to get it done in five days or ten days or however long it was, there is less time for me to go back and forth and obsess about any particular detail of the game.

Patrick: Absolutely. I'm such a big fan of time boxing and time limiting myself because instead of “How do I make the best game possible?” It's just, “How do I make the best game in ten days?” “I have to get started quickly.” It forces you to make decisions quickly, which I think people in the board game world– So David, I don't know many game designers you talk to, but I talk to a lot of people who have been designing board games for like– Or, sorry. Have been designing a single board game for two to three years.

David: Right.

Patrick: And I think for me, I would rather get out more projects that are slightly less good but just get out way more of them than spend two to three years on each project. But maybe that's also my personal bias, but there is something– [Inaudible].

David: Yeah, that's so interesting. I think, what was that game I played with you about–? It's like the Japanese–?

Patrick: Is this the coin one?

David: No, it's the thing where you're making bowls and pottery, you're fixing bowls and pottery.

Patrick: Kintsugi.

David: Yeah, that was such an interesting game, and I enjoyed playing that game. I do agree that getting through concepts earlier on one of the things I'm thinking about is this tension of– You can tell when a game has been play tested thoroughly. I'm sure that some of the games that I love were play tested for years, and so I think there is benefit to that. Especially as you get more and more complex in games, I think a light roll and write game has an upper limit in terms of how much you would want to– How many hours you would want to pour into play testing that game.

But I definitely think that the constraint of being like, “Get this into the world as quick as possible and get people trying it and see if any of this is good.” I was just browsing Twitter the other day and saw something from Eric Lange or someone like that about how important it is to throw together the bad prototype and see how it feels to play it. I couldn't agree more with that part of it, to iterate fast.

I come from the technology and startup world mostly, and the idea of “Move fast and break things” has its downsides, but there is something to be said for not waiting forever to get a game in front of your friends and seeing if anyone likes it. There is huge benefit in starting to interact with the real world on anything, including a game design, I think.

Patrick: Absolutely. Sorry, I was just trying to find– I have a landing page. If you want to hear about Kintsugi, which was Mintsugi, it's back to Kintsugi because no one got the pun. When you have to explain the joke, it's no longer funny, so– There we go, great. I just found the link, so I'm going to drop this in my show notes now, and I will put it in the show notes for the podcast for Kintsugi.

Because David, that game was almost signed by two publishers, and it still may be signed, but it was almost signed by two publishers. Hopefully, someday it'll get picked up by a publisher, or maybe I'll make it myself and just stop waiting. But it is very cool to work on a thing early, right?

David: Absolutely. And seeing– One of the things I've appreciated being friends with you,' Patrick, is just seeing the games as they're in different stages of development. I'm sure when or if Kintsugi gets published, it will look quite different than the version we played. I don't know, what's that? Six months ago? So that's fun to see as well, the way that a thing changes over time and gets often a lot better over time.

Patrick: Yeah, and there's a lot of– I think what's cool about game design, in the beginning, David, and maybe this is the part that I think– Here's the thing, when you're play testing, I think you're adjusting the numbers, generally. Or at least by the time, like when I sent you a copy of Fry Thief, it was like, “Play with this.” And it's like, you would say, “This card is too powerful, this card is too weak.” So I reduce a power or add a power here, whereas early in game design, it's that same thing, but it's like you're just drastically changing the game.

So it's a little bit more creative and a little bit less just putzing with the numbers. Let me– Because I just want to make sure I get into a different question here. The thing I picked up from that, let me just summarize because I was distracted looking for my Kintsugi landing page. The thing I picked up from that is I think probably the best place to get started with a game enthusiast is with play testing, and then if someone shows interest in play testing, then maybe bring them on earlier in the process.

David: Yes, absolutely.

What is a dream mechanic or theme that you would love to work on?

Patrick: OK, awesome. I'm glad I at least heard that correctly. So let me ask you then, David, let's say I can get someone like yourself interested. What is a dream mechanic or theme that you would love to work on?

David: Personally, my favorite types of games as a general rule, I would say a work replacement game. That type of game is the mechanic I would be most interested in working on. I certainly enjoy other mechanics and games, but that is the thing that I reliably come back to as “I really enjoy that class of games more than most other games,” and it fits with the “I like more complex games.” Because you don't have a lot of, or at least I don't encounter many very lightweight work replacement games, whereas roll and writes are typically, in my experience, quite light.

Patrick: Yeah, I love that. So let's go into some of these ending questions, David, and they may not make sense for you, so if they don't make sense, we'll just skip them.

David: OK.

Patrick: As someone who's helped me, you were officially a co-designer of one game, David.

David: Woo-woo.

What one resource would you recommend to another indie game designer or an aspiring game designer?

Patrick: Yeah. What is a resource that you would–? What is a resource, either a blog or a podcast, not including this one, or just a website that you would recommend to someone else who is maybe co-designing their first game?

David: I mean, never having dug deeply into the world of where board game designers talk to each other, I do think paying attention to some board game reviewers either a single one and getting to know the insides and outsides of what they like or a broad category of them and seeing a variety of people's opinions on games. It feels like an obvious place where I would want to start to study, having already started that study.

Patrick: Yes, totally agree. Do you have–? All right, so you brought up reviewers a couple of times, who's your favorite reviewer?

David: It varies a lot. I especially, like two or three years ago, I was into [Rotto] on YouTube who, I think his preferences in games are so similar to mine that if he likes a game, I probably will like it, and if he doesn't like a game I probably won't like it. Obviously, Tom Vassell at the Dice Tower comes to mind as well, as just a person I've watched so many reviews over the years. His preferences are different than mine, but he's also– Once you have seen or read or however you prefer to consume things, once you've seen or “Shut up and sit down” is another one that comes to mind as a great YouTube channel about board games. Once you've seen enough reviews from a single critic, you know their biases and how those biases interact with yours. That's when I think it gets really interesting because you can tell if someone whose opinions you often differ with hates a game, you might like it, and vice versa. So that's interesting to find out about.

Is there anything that you think would be worth spending money on as a game designer?

Patrick: Cool, I like that. Is there–? So this is going to be hard, but is there anything that you think would be worth spending money on as a game designer?

David: Gosh, the thing that comes to mind for me would be– I'm pretty sure you've done this, Patrick, I am not a good artist, so getting a way to spend money on someone doing a little bit of art for a game feels like it would be immediately worth the money to me. Because some good art involved with a game is a huge benefit to me for how a game feels.

I mentioned my ugly, simplistic prototype where I colored with crayons on the French fries to make them yellow, but anyone who can go a little beyond that would definitely feel worth the money for me as I iterated through a game so that I could sense more of the theme as it went in that direction.

What does success in the board game world look like to you?

Patrick: I totally agree. It is absolutely magical to have someone illustrate one of your games. I love it. Also, this one is going to be an interesting question. What does success in the board game world look like to you? And this doesn't have to be as a game designer.

David: Winning, winning the game. That's an interesting question. I enjoy just playing a game, and if I were to get into design, I think success would look like knowing that someone had appreciated a game I designed. Like, genuinely enjoyed playing it and wasn't just my friend saying, “That's really fun.”

Patrick: Yeah. You want it to go a little bit beyond your mom and your dad and your best friend saying your game is fun.

David: Precisely.

Overrated/Underrated

Patrick: All right. David, this is great. I like to end my show with a game called Overrated/Underrated. I'm pretty sure you haven't heard of this, so let me give you a brief description here. I'm going to give you a word or phrase, and then you're going to say if it's overrated or underrated, so if I said “Giant fluffy pillows,” you would say “Underrated. Because I like to have a soft place to put my head when I sleep.” So like, underrated or overrated and then a one-sentence reason why. Cool?

David: Gotcha.

Patrick: All right. So, first one's going to be easy. Santorini, overrated or underrated?

David: I think it's a little overrated. I appreciate the game in the mechanics, but I feel like I love so many similar games, and I don't think Santorini as a three-player game should be on the box.

Patrick: Yeah, I get that. How about gaming consoles? As in Xbox, PlayStation, etc. Are those overrated or underrated?

David: Overrated. As someone who spends all day on computers for my work, I enjoy so much fiddling with little wood and plastic bits on a game like this. Something for the tactile physicality of it is so worth having that I just can't say I'm that into consoles compared with a board game box.

Patrick: David, sidebar here, I just bought the first video game– Like a real video game. I buy sometimes little iPad games, but a real video game on Xbox for the first time in six years a week or two ago. Dave, I played it for like a weekend, and I'm like, “All right. I think I'm good. I think I have had enough computer time.”

David: I got a Switch, I used to be into video games a ton when I was like a teenager, and I got a Switch the other year, and realistically, I pick it up once a month if that. Even though I'm excited to play the Zelda game on it, I just never get around to it.

Patrick: I get that, I get it. All right, third one. Custom chessboards, overrated or underrated?

David: Not being a big fan of chess, they're definitely overrated. You can just play normal chess or one of the thousands of other boring games in the world.

Patrick: Last one here, online conferences. Maybe I'll say, “In the work context.” So in the work context, online conferences overrated or underrated?

David: I think right now they're overrated, although that perception is starting to shift, so they might become underrated in the next six months as people burn out on them and then realize that there are nice qualities to online conferences.

Wrap Up

Patrick: Yeah, I love that. David, thank you so much for being on the show.

David: Yeah, it was fun.

Patrick: Where can people find you online?

David: Probably the best place to start is my personal homepage at DavidBHayes.com, that'll link you to Twitter and so many other places you can find me.

Patrick: Cool. Listeners, if you liked this show and you like this podcast, please leave us a review on iTunes. If you leave a review, David said he would give you personalized coffee recommendations. As you know from the top of the show, he knows everything about coffee beans, so that's a pretty great motivator. Instead of talking about my Patreon, which I usually do at the end of an episode, I just want to mention something.

I'm planning for Black Friday, so I don't know about you, but I generally do all my Christmas shopping on Black Friday weekend. Black Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday. I'm going to be putting together a special deal for Black Friday weekend, so I hadn't figured out the exact numbers yet, but it's going to be if you make an order of five to ten copies of Fry Thief, I'm going to give you a huge discount off. Because sometimes you're like, if I have 20 cousins, it's just nice to get all of them the same little doodad.

That's what I'm going to try, so if you're interested in that deal, listen a little bit more. I'll probably have it a little bit more fleshed out in future episodes and/or reach out to me through the website. We could just talk to me about it, and I'd love to figure out like, what is the–? Five copies, ten copies, whatever works for you. I think that's all I want to promote to the end of the show, and then I just want to say you can visit the site at IndieBoardGameDesigners.com, you can follow me on Twitter and BoardGameGeek, I'm @BFTrick on both platforms. Until next time everyone, happy designing. Bye-bye.