Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Subscribe to podcast: Apple Podcasts | RSS

Patrick Rauland: Hello everyone and welcome to the Board Game Designers podcast, where I sit down with a different independent game designer every single week and we talk about their experience in game design, and of course lessons they've learned along the way.

Patrick Rauland: My name is Patrick Rauland, and today I'm going to be talking with Carla Kopp, who is a publisher and the designer behind Stellar Leap and Super Hack Override, which I actually got to play just a few months ago at Origins.

Patrick Rauland: So, Carla, welcome to the show.

Carla Kopp: Hey, I'm so excited to be here.

Patrick Rauland: So Carla, I like to start with the most important details. The most important detail is at either Origins or Gen Con I think it was Origins you had a guess the number of meeples in this jar game.

Carla Kopp: Yeah.

Patrick Rauland: I won that. I have a skill. It's guessing meeples in jars.

Carla Kopp: Oh, awesome.

Patrick Rauland: Yeah, I know you guys sent me a game. I was very excited.

Carla Kopp: Okay. Well I didn't really handle that, so that was, okay.

Patrick Rauland: I think that was your partner.

Carla Kopp: Yeah.

Patrick Rauland: Boyfriend? Husband?

Carla Kopp: Yeah he takes care of shipping stuff.

Patrick Rauland: Ah, nice. Anyways I'm, I haven't won one of those like silly games in a while, so I think I appreciate whenever a game company has a silly game for me to play.

Carla Kopp: Oh, yeah and like I really liked it cause like I had this big jar, and I had just gotten in like the Star League shipment, and they had like this big bag of meeples and I was like, I mean this is perfect, right? So I just put all the meeples in there and like they looked really bright and colorful so maybe they brought in people just to look at the meeple jar.

Introduction

Patrick Rauland: I think so. I, yes, I think so. Let's just say yes. Alright, so I like to start with sort of a very quick lightning round I guess. Basically who are you? So, first question. If I met you at a convention what is the game you would play every single time?

Carla Kopp: Every single time would probably be Azul. I love that game.

Patrick Rauland: Nice. Alright. Besides giraffes what's your favorite animal?

Carla Kopp: So, a giraffe isn't my favorite animal. So my company is Weird Giraffe Games so the weird giraffe is this thing called an okapi. Have you heard of it?

Patrick Rauland: No, no what is it?

Carla Kopp: Okay, so it's the only other thing that's in the giraffe family. So, one I'm also a big animal nerd. I grew up, and I didn't watch all those TV shows and movies that everyone else watched so I missed out on like all the culture references.

Patrick Rauland: Kay.

Carla Kopp: Instead, I watched Animal Planet, so I know all these weird things about animals. So okapi is one of my favorite. I also like the pangolin, because when it's a baby it's like this little anteater thing, but when it's a baby like the tail of it is like a foot, but like it's not a foot, like the entire like length of it's like a foot in like four inches if you can picture this like super like anteater with super long baby tail. I don't know.

Patrick Rauland: Cool. No, that's super cool, I like it. So, pangolin and the okapi.

Carla Kopp: Okapi.

Patrick Rauland: Okapi. Okay so, last one in rock paper scissors what is your like default move?

Carla Kopp: So, I don't have a default move. I just watch the person and then I like think about who they are, and then I do the thing that would beat them.

Patrick Rauland: Okay, so I know we're not looking at each other right now, but pretend I'm doing rock paper scissors, what do you go with?

Carla Kopp: So I think you would go with paper, so I'd go with scissors.

How Did You Get Into Board Games & Board Game Design?

Patrick Rauland: Ooh, alright, wow. You super analyze this. Alright, cool. So first real question. How did you get into board games and board game design?

Carla Kopp: So, board games. Originally I got into Magic while I was in college, and the place you go to get Magic cards is actually the place you can also see board games at. So I kind of started like looking at board games at that point, but it wasn't until after I graduated college, and so I moved to a whole new city. Huntsville, Alabama, and one of the only people I like kind of knew, her name was Sarah, and like she had gone to the same college as me, but I didn't like super know her, but she was like “Hey, let's hang out, let's play board games.” And I was like yay, I want friends, and so we started playing board games, and I realized that board games were like this really easy way to socialize.

Carla Kopp: I'm not a, I'm a super introvert. I'm not great at just like talking, like talking about like small talk and stuff is like the worst. I don't wanna do it ever, but instead like when you meet somebody you can be like, “Okay, we're gonna play this game, and we're gonna like do minor talking while we also play this game. Like and there all the basic rules and stuff. So, you don't have, it doesn't take a lot of effort. You're just playing a game, but you're also getting to know someone.

Patrick Rauland: I love that. No, and I totally, totally agree. It's like a secret way to talk to someone for an hour without them realizing you're having an hour long conversation.

Carla Kopp: Yeah, and like it just gets right of all the pressure of like entertaining someone because the game should be entertaining enough.

What Game Got You Into The Hobby?

Patrick Rauland: I like it. So what is your go to game in that regard. Like what, or maybe what is like a game that got you into the hobby?

Carla Kopp: Agricola, actually.

How Do You Balance Game Design, Publishing, & Everything?

Patrick Rauland: Cool. Very cool. Okay so you do a lot of things. You, and I should, I know you designed games. Now you are your own publisher, Weird Giraffe Games. You're also signing other peoples games, and you have a day job. How do you balance game design, publishing, your day job, and everything else under the sun?

Carla Kopp: So, if you want like a super long answer for this I recently gave like a 45 minute talk in the Board Game Design Lab Ignite Conference on this, but the short version is that I try to be really super efficient, and I also try to be like really focused. So, when I do get design time I make sure that I'm like super prepared. I have everything I need, and then I also turn off all like, I turn off Twitter notifications, emails, etc. I just try to focus, and get things done. So, I've read a bunch of book like on efficiency, and like deep work. Deep Work is like, like when you're really thinking and stuff, to try to get better at that sorta thing.

Patrick Rauland: Cal Newport right?

Carla Kopp: Maybe. I'm not great at authors.

Patrick Rauland: Okay, yeah, yeah I think so. Yeah, cool. Cool, no that's a lot. That's, I mean I am running a podcast and a day job is hard enough. Like, but also game design, I guess, but as a publisher then you have like customers contacting you, and “This piece was broken”, and “Can you fix this?,” I think, let me ask you a follow up, I guess. Like how do you, so like when you have like design time, let's say, you know you turn off your phone for two hours, and you spend two hours in the night designing a game, or, or something. Or planning on KickStarter. What about all the small stuff? Like when people just email you about “Hey I'm missing a meeple from this bag.” Like, doesn't that get over whelming?

Carla Kopp: It does, because there's so many emails. Like, if you ever like watch my Twitter account I always like complain about the number of emails I have because there's so many. But, one thing I do, is I try to get up early int he morning, and early morning time is like get caught up on social media, answer a bunch of emails. So is like lunch time. So, I have like an hour or two in the morning, an hour at lunch. So then, after I get off work, then I can actually do like a big thing, because I have gotten rid of all like the small little tasks.

Patrick Rauland: So sometimes it's helpful to clear up those small tasks just so then. So then you feel less burdened I guess?

Carla Kopp: Yeah, yeah well and you have to like care about your customers, and answer them in like a reasonable amount of time. I don't answer like everyone. I usually take like a week before I answer things, but I let it build up. Like, “okay, now I have like three people that need like missing pieces, or games or something.” Like, so I do it all at the same time, because like when you're shipping stuff, like it's a lot better to ship like three or four things at the same time, than just shipping like one thing every day. I have to go to the post office, etc.

Patrick Rauland: Yeah.

Carla Kopp: So, do everything that's like the same thing at the same time. And like, it's the same with email, when you're in email it's a lot faster to like answer like ten emails at the same time, than to answer one email and then do something else, and then come back to email, etc.

Patrick Rauland: Totally. Love it, love it. This is cool, cause I geek out about productivity, and I guess most board game people kind of skip that, and they just say it works. So it's cool that you think about that a lot.

Carla Kopp: Oh I definitely do, because like you also have to make time for learning and stuff, because I'm all about metrics and things like that. So, I used to do a [inaudible 00:09:21] graphs of all the things I've done. And it gives me a score and stuff, but I can definitely tell a difference between how productive I am right now versus how productive I was a year ago, and like a year, two years ago I was like, I did a lot less than I do now. So that's like all the more motivating for me to keep doing it and learning new things, because I mean I have to. I have to get a lot better than I am now so I can like put out even more games.

How Do You Design a Solo Mode For Someone Else's Game?

Patrick Rauland: Love it. Very cool. So, let's talk about that. So, you in addition to the games you design, you also sign other peoples games. And one of the things you told me just before we started recording, is that while you don't design a ton of games yourself right now, you're designing solo modes for other people's games. How, so for me I've never done that. I've never designed a solo game, really, and I definitely haven't designed a solo version of a game for someone else's game. What is that like?

Carla Kopp: It's actually, like for me it just comes really easy and naturally. So, first you have to play the game. Play the game a couple times. Figure out what it is that the player interaction. Like what do players do in the game. How do they effect you? And then try to figure out how like I do like a lot of like automatons or robot players. So, figure out how to emulate this player interaction without having an actual like player. Like, you don't wanna have the robot player and have to like calculate their resources, and make decisions for them. That would make the robot player just like you playing like two games against yourself, and like that's not fun at all. So, you wanna like really simplify it, and break it down to like how is the player gonna, like how is this robot going to like interact with you as if it was a real person. You wanna make it like super simple.

Carla Kopp: So I end up usually having like a series of if, then statements. Like, okay check this thing, if it's true, do this. If it's not true, do that. So it's like super easy and simple. The solo player like on their turn, it gets over with in like ten to twenty seconds is the goal. Like especially if you like know what the robot player's supposed to do.

Patrick Rauland: Got it.

Carla Kopp: If you know, you can just do it, you don't have to look at the card. And if you do like a like if, then statement that sort of format is actually pretty easy to get like a series of the robots. So you can have multiple different robots.

Patrick Rauland: Oh, cool.

Carla Kopp: Just changing up like what happens. Like, oh, okay if this is true instead of it doing what it did for the first robot, you just make it do something slightly different.

Patrick Rauland: Uh-huh.So.

Carla Kopp: That way you can get like a range of robots.

What About Solo Mode for a Card Game?

Patrick Rauland: Okay, so I have a game I'm working on where you're stealing fries back and forth, and but I guess what's hard for me is it's not like a work replacement game where there's like a ton of actions, and you can always say “like, use this action.” Like, should I just flip like a random card for the opponent or should I give them like a default action, and then flip a card and if the card is better then do that? Like, how do you, how would you if this was like a card based game? Sorry, I know that's really, really specific.

Carla Kopp: Oh, but I've done this with two card based games, so this is cool

Patrick Rauland: Oh, cool.

Carla Kopp: One thing I really like is, so I'm also a publisher so I don't like adding in extra components. What I do like is taking your current components and adding like little solo icons on them. So, you flip over a card on the deck, you look at what the solo icon is, and then you do something based on what that icon is.

Patrick Rauland: Cool, okay. So I've actually played Super Hack Override. Is there a solo mode in that?

Carla Kopp: There is not.

Patrick Rauland: Ah, darn it. I was just trying to think if like I'd played, I was like I was trying to imagine a game that I've played of yours that has that. Cool, I'll have to dig a little bit more deep into this, but I think that's really interesting to just add a couple extra icons to a card as opposed to, as opposed to something else. I like that, cool.

Carla Kopp: Yeah, it keeps it really simple. So, Fire in the Library, this game you're pulling cubes from a bag, and you're pressing your luck, and you don't wanna like make the fire burn things down, okay? So, in this game, one of the solo modes you flip over the card, and the card shows you how the AI scores, like how many points it gets essentially based on … So, the books are different values as time goes on, but it says what books it scores, but it also says how it burns the library down, because one you want the robot to be competitive scoring wise. But, one thing the players do in the game is that they burn the library down and you don't know how they're gonna do that. So, that's really simple, easy. You know, instead of icons.

Patrick Rauland: Got it. I've have to look into that. That sounds really really cool. I like it. Okay, so I guess I wanna ask you about like why you do that. Like, is, does that add a lot of value to your games to add solo mode, cause you don't have that much time, and you're spending time doing this like why don't you ask the original designer to do it? Why do you think it's so important?

Carla Kopp: So, why I don't ask the original designer to do it is most of the designers I've worked with haven't designed solo modes.

Patrick Rauland: Okay.

Carla Kopp: I mean if they did, then they'd probably already have designed it already. But also solo modes are really easy to test because you just need you. So, when you're designing like a two to four player game you're like “oh, okay. I need to go find another 1-3 players to play this with me, or I need to play like four different players.” And that's not like a real true play test. Like, you can see if things work, but it's not like real, you know. But with a solo game you can be like “Okay, I think this might work, and now I'm just gonna sit down here and immediately test it because that's all you need.”

Patrick Rauland: Yeah, that is really really nice. And you obviously don't need, yeah.

Carla Kopp: Yeah, you obviously, you can just do it yourself and play it repeatedly, and like make it harder. Play, usually it takes like a shorter amount of time to play than a regular game. Like, Dreams of Tomorrow takes about 30 minutes to do the solo mode, so I would play the game and be like “Oh, okay, so this didn't work out that well, that didn't work out that well.” Well, I just take a pen, change the values, change what the like solo card said, and do it again. And like, you can iterate so fast.

Does Adding a Solo Mode Increase Popularity or Sales?

Patrick Rauland: So, okay so here's my next question, like is there any evidence that there's like more sales or people like posting pictures on Twitter saying “I love the solo mode.” Like is there, is there some sort of metric? I think you said you like metrics. Is there some sort of metric that says this is a good idea to spend time developing this solo mode?

Carla Kopp: I think so. So one thing that you could look at is when people actually get the game like who posts pictures of it. Do people post pictures of the solo mode. And usually I get like, so Star League I just shipped it out to people and I feel like about half the people have taken pictures and posted about it have been solo people.

Patrick Rauland: Wow. That's really cool. Alright, so worth doing.

Carla Kopp: Well and I also, so I know a number of solo reviewers, like Beyond Solitaire, Cardboard Clash, Jambalaya Plays, and I give them the games to review so I like really emphasize the solo mode, so I think like as time goes on, like I'll become more known as solo person, so I think it's definitely something worth doing.

What Excites You In The Game Design?

Patrick Rauland: Got it. Love it. Very cool. So, let's change gears just a little bit. So what type of games do you like designing in general, like what is, what is exciting to you in the design space.

Carla Kopp: So, I like a lot of different mechanics. I've never used the same mechanic twice, but I really like lighter games or like ish games. I like games that take about like 45 minutes to an hour to play. Mostly because I play chess a lot, and I tried so Star League, that game it goes for about an hour, hour and a half, depending on like the people, if they're learning or not. Or if they don't want the game to end. And that was a lot hard to get people to play test, but Fire in the Library the game I did after that, that game takes like 20 to 30 minutes to play. So, going from a big like oh, okay, doing one play test full game and then talking about it might take like two hours. But doing the same thing for Fire in the Library, that took like half an hour to 45 minutes. Like, it was just so refreshing.

Patrick Rauland: Got it. Got it.

Carla Kopp: Like where you could just go, and I could go like “Oh, okay let's play again, let's play again.” And then you'd get people that would actually like know what they're doing, and you get the experienced player like so much faster. So I like shorter games like that. I'd say light games, but I try to make every game that I like work on, like the cognitive load a lot smaller than other games, but I like, I think the term light is weird for people because I say it, and you might be thinking something completely different than I am.

Patrick Rauland: Yeah, it's ambiguous.

Carla Kopp: Yeah, and there's like so many ranges of what light means. Like, because I've played like a large range of games my version of light is a lot different than somebody who's only played like one or two games. But-

Patrick Rauland: Totally.

Carla Kopp: Yeah, I try to make it so that you don't have to remember a lot of things, because remembering is never fun. So I use things like reference cards, and like reminders, and just like things out there, so you don't have to like remember stuff. So, that's what I mean by light.

Do Your Games Feel Similar?

Patrick Rauland: No, I like that. I'm curious do you, do people that play one of your games, let's say Fire in the Library, are they the same types of people that are gonna enjoy your other games. Like, do you have like, not a theme, I don't mean a theme in like the board game sense, but like do you have commonality between games. Like do they feel the same when you play them? Does that make sense?

Carla Kopp: Yes, yes. So, definitely. If you play like, so I have a play test group that has played ten games that I've worked on, which is a lot more than the average person, since those are all the games that have not gone to cons or seen the light of day really.

Patrick Rauland: Okay.

Carla Kopp: But, yeah there's a definite like feel to a Carla game where I want it to be really like enjoyable for the first play, even if you're not a gamer, but also it has like layers of, okay the first game you think that the strategy is this, and then the next time you might try a different strategy. Like, you realize different things as you go along.

What Concepts or Mechanisms Are You Working On?

Patrick Rauland: Yup, that makes total sense. Very cool. So is there something in your designs that you've tried, let's say is there like a mechanic that you really like and you've tried to get it in, or a game concept that you really wanna get in there, and you just haven't been able to get it to work yet. Is there something you're still like really trying hard to work on?

Carla Kopp: So, I really wanna make a game that has a simultaneous action selection. I haven't tried to work it in yet, but I haven't found the right design for it yet either.

Patrick Rauland: First of all, can you just give me an example of that, like what does that mean?

Carla Kopp: So, that is something where everyone is choosing actions at the same time, and they all reveal what they're doing at the same time.

Patrick Rauland: Got it. Cool, so you've, I mean I assume you've tried it and it just wasn't fun, or it just didn't work or…

Carla Kopp: So, I haven't tried it yet.

Patrick Rauland: Okay.

Carla Kopp: Like, when I design a game it takes me a long time up front where, because I think about it, I make the cards, and then I give it to the table, and then it goes really fast after that. But, I haven't found like a theme that really like calls for it. Like, when I design a game I have to have a story. I have to have a reason for why you're doing the thing that you're doing. Like, the theme and the mechanics have to make sense or I'm not gonna get it to the table. And I just haven't found like why on my doing this simultaneous action selection. Like what theme does that go with. I've played games that have it, but like I don't wanna like steal that thing.

Patrick Rauland: Yeah.

Carla Kopp: Because it's already done.

Patrick Rauland: Yeah, totally. Cool, no I like the sound of that, and I'm trying to think of games where there is simultaneous action selection. Off the top of my head the only one I can think of is like Gravwell where like you're trying to get out of a black hole, and you're trying to like balance off each other's gravity, but I can't think of that many games that do it. Yeah. Cool, very cool little idea. Okay, so we'll start moving towards the end here. One of the things that I… is there a resource and actually I'm gonna, I'm gonna change this question up for you, since I think you can do with a variant of this question. Is there a resource that you'd recommend to another game designer, and this doesn't have to be board game specific. Just something that would help them design games.

Carla Kopp: Okay, I think the thing that's helped me out the most with game design is Todoist, where it's just this app where you can do a to-do list, and the best part about it is that you can make like as many to-do lists as you want. You can reference a to-do list like “Oh, okay. I want to on Thursday actually look at this other to-do list.” And it just happens. It has reocurring things which is the only program I've found where you can just have a reoccuring, like say like “Oh, okay, make sure to check slack everyday.” And then I do that because I see it on the list so I do the thing. I'm really motivated by things like that, where like “Oh, okay, so I'm checking the list, I'm knocking things out. But it also gives you scores. It has like a little happy face when you've done like your suggested number of tasks, which you can change everyday if you want. But, yeah, it is so nice. And you could also work with other people on it. So, yeah, Todoist.

Patrick Rauland: Love it.

Carla Kopp: Yeah.

Patrick Rauland: And any like books or blogs or anything like that.

Carla Kopp: For blogs I've always like Jamie Stegmaier's blog, podcasts. I love Breaking Into Board Games. Another app that's great for working with people is Slack. I love Slack so much.

Patrick Rauland: That's so funny, because I'm in the web development space like everyone has a Slack. I'm in like ten Slacks and it's a little bit overwhelming, but it's because it's such a good tool that everyone has their own, right?

Carla Kopp: Yeah, so many game design Slacks are out there. You just need to find them.

Patrick Rauland: Oh, no I can't, I personally can not be added to another, I'm sure they add value but I'm just, I'm overwhelmed. There has to be like a way to like temporarily join, you know what I mean, for like a week, I wanna be in a Slack and chat with people, and then, and then get out, because it's overwhelming. I see the little, cause I have Slack open for work and I see the little dot that says there's like a notification in this group, and then I get exed out.

Carla Kopp: Yeah, so what I do is I just turn off notifications for the Slacks that I only wanna check when I actually wanna check them, because yeah that notification thing will like bother me until I go and see what it is, so.

What Does Success Look Like?

Patrick Rauland: Yes. Oh that's totally me. It's so funny. Okay, so what is success look like to you? What are you going for here?

Carla Kopp: So, I'm not really sure about this. I think one of the things I've really enjoyed about board game design and like publishing and everything is just learning and being better, and seeing myself change and just be more of an open person. Like if you listen to this you might think like “Oh, yeah, Carla can actually talk about stuff, but she says she's an introvert? That doesn't make sense.” But I'm gotten like a lot better at just talking and like going to like conventions and like being in the booth and being able to be like this happy friendly person for like eight hours, and like interacting with other people. I see my- it's already a success for me from that stand point, but I'm also one of those overachievers where I constantly redefine what success is. So, one thing that I would really like is to actually get into distribution, and like start selling a lot more games. That would be amazing. But, like, the ultimate success would be if I did this full time.

Patrick Rauland: Do you have a road map, or do you have like, you know what I mean, like do you have like projections of like when that will happen.

Carla Kopp: Oh, definitely I have like spread sheets and stuff. So one of the major things that is a roadblock for me is that I have a lot of student loans, because of yeah, I made choices and things, as we all did growing up, when we didn't know things. But those will get paid off in 19 months or less, so yeah. Yeah, I know it's intense. And like two months ago that was like 24 months or less. Which you know the math there, I really think it'll be less than 19 months, but it really depends on how life goes. If I get a promotion at work, you know, how good the KickStarters go, how good conventions go. Like any one thing in the future that just blows up will mean, you know maybe that'll be the thing that makes me actually do this full time.

Patrick Rauland: Oh, cool. So you're saying there could be a lucky break right? And even if there isn't a lucky break you'll still get there in the not too distant future, right?

Carla Kopp: Yeah, yeah.

Patrick Rauland: Cool.

Carla Kopp: Unless like bad things happen of course, but you know, that's life.

Patrick Rauland: That is life. What do you think the time, like let's say nothing explodes, like you don't have like a Kickstarter that makes 200 bajillion dollars. Do you think it's like two years, because by then you'll have paid off your student loans, and then it's one less thing to worry about, or do you think it's more like 5-10.

Carla Kopp: I think, it would be nice if it was like 2-3 years, because once the student loans are done then we have to like kind of like build up some sort of nest egg just in case things don't work out, but I think like just making games, having successful Kickstarters, going to conventions, and selling games, like I mean that makes me happy, and I don't need a lot of money to make me happy, you know. Like, you know, like as we go through life we learn different things, and at one time it was like “Oh, yeah money will probably make me happy.” And at this point it'll be more like okay not being in debt will make me a lot happier. But, yeah just doing what I like, and like the board game community is like really amazing and just being able to give back to the board game community and have it like respond so positively. I know I'm making an influence and that just makes every day better.

Underrated Overrated Game

Patrick Rauland: That's so good to hear. This is really cool. So I life to end my interviews with a little game called overrated, underrated. Have you heard of it?

Carla Kopp: No, I haven't

Patrick Rauland: Excellent, so basically I'm gonna give out a word or a phrase and then I'm gonna force you to take a position if you think it's overrated or underrated. So, if I said macaroni and cheese, you'd of course say underrated, because carbs and cheese is delicious. Something like that, got it?

Carla Kopp: Hmm.

Patrick Rauland: Alright, side-scrolling video games, are they overrated or underrated?

Carla Kopp: Underrated.

Patrick Rauland: Because, like a one sentence.

Carla Kopp: I haven't heard any that are super like popular. I mean like they used to be really popular, but I haven't heard any like nowadays.

Patrick Rauland: Hmm, okay, alright. How about giraffes weird colored tongues, which I'm pretty sure are black. Overrated or underrated?

Carla Kopp: Definitely underrated, cause like how many animals have that long of a tongue. It's like crazy long and weird.

Patrick Rauland: It is crazy, okay so you would probably know this. Why are they so long? I'm sure there's a reason for it.

Carla Kopp: Oh, it's cause they eat all the leaves from trees so they, that's why their necks are long, so they can reach the trees, but like having a long tongue means that they can have like a higher radius of the length that they can get them.

Patrick Rauland: Ah, reach.

Carla Kopp: Yeah.

Patrick Rauland: Ah, very cool. Alright, okay what about 4x games. Overrated or underrated?

Carla Kopp: I would say properly rated, the third option.

Patrick Rauland: I don't know if there's a third option here. You think its, okay how about this, do you think they are… I'm trying to think of like a different way to word this. Alright, no we'll go with that, you're the guest. Properly rated. Alright, alright, but don't tell other guests that you can say properly rated. Gotta be a secret alright.

Carla Kopp: Okay, I won't tell anyone.

Patrick Rauland: Alright, alright. Cranberry sauce at Thanksgiving. Overrated or underrated.

Carla Kopp: Okay, is it like cranberry sauce in a can or real cranberries? Or both.

Patrick Rauland: You can answer however you want.

Carla Kopp: Okay, I would say overrated, cause everyone has at least one of those.

Patrick Rauland: Overrated, got it. Okay, well this has been awesome and I've learned stuff about giraffes and things. Thank you for being on the show, Carla.

Carla Kopp: Thank you so much for having me. I've had a great time.

Wrap Up

Patrick Rauland: Yay. Where can people find you online and where can people find your latest game online?

Carla Kopp: So, online I have a website at WeirdGiraffeGames.com, I have a Facebook Weird Giraffe Games, Twitter is @WeirdGiraffes, if you go to WeirdGiraffeGames.com/dreams they can find my latest game Dreams of Tomorrow.

Patrick Rauland: Mm-hmm (affirmative), very cool. And that'll be, that should be on Kickstarter when this airs.

Carla Kopp: Yes, it's on KickStarter from October 15th to November 8th should everything go well, and if you don't like things like social media I mean you can feel free to contact me at contact@weirdgiraffegames.com

Patrick Rauland: Cool, and and just in case this episode airs late or something else happens there will be late pledging, right?

Carla Kopp: Oh, yeah. Yep

Patrick Rauland: Alright, very cool. So, if you like this interview, or if you like this podcast listener please leave us a review on iTunes. If you leave a review Carla said she'd let you pet her pixelated giraffe. So I think that's a pretty, pretty awesome reward. You can visit the site at IndieBoardGameDesigners.com. You can follow me on Twitter on @BFTrick, B as in board game, F as in fun, and trick as in trick taking games.

And super exciting news, I got this thing called a domain/website for my game FryThief. You can go to FryThief.com then there's a landing page and it'll, at some point when there's a Kickstarter the landing page will take you to the Kickstarter but I have a website so you can go there and follow along with the game. That's all I got until next time. Happy designing everyone. Bye-bye.