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Patrick: Hello everyone, and welcome to the Indie Board Game Designers podcast, where I sit down with a different independent game designer every single week and we talk about their experience in game design and the lessons they've learned along the way. My name is Patrick Rauland and today I'll be talking with Aaron Pfeil who designed Alone in the Woods, which I saw very briefly at Protospiel Denver when I was dropping off a few packages just before this COVID-19 crisis got kind of crazy and exploded everywhere and people stopped going places. I saw this really cool game, I took a picture and I bugged Aaron to come on the show. So Aaron, welcome to the show.

Aaron: Hey Patrick. Thanks for having me, man. This is awesome.

Introduction

Patrick: Yay, great. So I'm going to introduce you to the audience with some lightning round questions. First one, are witches more likely to be good or evil?

Aaron: Oh man, that's a fun one. There's quite a stigmatism around witches and I think if you look back at sort of the cultural ideologies around witches it's very negative. And that's coming from a lot of different places, it's very unknown sort of back in like the 17th century people were trying to explain phenomenon in weird ways and witchcraft was sort of the scapegoat for that.

Aaron: But in current culture and contemporary religions, it's much more accepting. I've actually had a few players play my game who practice witchcraft as their personal religion. And yeah, I don't think it's a thing of good or evil, I honestly believe it's a matter of perspective and I try to throw a wrench in that question with my game in particular. I wasn't trying to highlight a good or evil side per se.

Patrick: All right, that's a very non-answer but I do get it. All right, this one's less contentious. Where does witchcraft's, Wiccan, whatever, sorry, just all the witchlore, all the witch mythology, where does magic come from?

Aaron: I think it just comes from magic that is the will, your energy that you want to put out there. I really believe that your thinking has an effect on energy in the universe. So I believe that people who will certain spells or maybe try to shape their career lives with positive thinking or want to put negative thinking onto other people. I really think that's where most of the magic comes from. You kind of make it real inside of your world in your head and that sort of just comes out.

Patrick: Got it. So I'm trying to think of like traditional mythology and this actually most makes me think of the Patrick Rothfuss series. I know the first book is called Name of the Wind, I can't remember the King killer Chronicles, I think is the name of the series.

Aaron: Yeah. I've heard of those.

Patrick: Where basically you need to imagine it in your mind, or you need to imagine something in your mind and that'll make it happen. I'm probably butchering that, but it's cool that your system is aligned with that system. Cool. Okay. So last lightning round question, which we might talk a lot about.

Aaron: Okay.

Patrick: What's a game you play with someone every single time at a convention?

Aaron: I'm pretty new at conventions. I've only gone to, man, I think it's just been two Protospiel. And so it's really just playing a lot of other developers prototypes. So honestly the game I've played most at a convention is mine, which is kind of silly. But, yeah, I would love to play like branch out whenever you're at a convention and you're play-testing your game. It's really hard to find time to play, already pretty published games that you love especially when you're taking your own notes and you're trying to dial in some mechanics. So honestly it's like not many, just my own which is kind of selfish.

How Did You Get Into Board Games and Board Game Design?

Patrick: Okay. But I think it's fine for you to say like playing games is not always my priority. And so sometimes the way I ask this question is, if you're really tired, what's the game you'd always stay up and play. And I think it's totally fine to say you know what? If I'm really tired, I'm just going to go to bed. That's a totally fine answer. Or maybe play my own game, totally fine answer. Alright. So, let me get to the first real question here. How did you get into board games and board game design?

Aaron: I got into board game design at a really young age that now that I sort of dissected and think about it. My brothers were a high inspiration for me. They really sparked the imagination of being able to design games, using things around the house. So we would play lots of board games growing up. And one of my favorites was Fireball Island. I'm a very big fan of just the board and sort of the experience, the adventure you had with that.

Aaron: But after we would play all of our board games, we would design games of our own. And we would use like Fisher Price toys, like the Knights and the Pirates and use those play sets. And we would give all of the little characters stats. Like health and attack and defense. And we would make these weird, it was DND, but not using the core rule book.

Aaron: And we would just track all this on pen and paper. And we would make handfuls of games. Another one was using these little toys called Zbots, which were like little mech characters in the 90s. They were pretty popular and we would look at them and decide like, “Oh, this is a fast Zbot. So he's got lots of speed. That's sort of his advantage. Or this Zbot she's a flier and she's got missiles on her back. So you have to write out a stats and attack bonuses for her missiles.

Aaron: And that's really carried that sort of imagination and freedom really has carried over into my adult life and sort of giving me the tools to create games on my own and a little more finesse and knowhow. But it really does come from early childhood. That's sort of the culture we built with each other. That was our relationship between me and my brothers.

Patrick: That's great. And I love hearing the people who started like as kids and just never stopped doing it. It's always really, really cool. Okay. So let me get into the reason…. So let me just explain a little bit of backstory, right? So Protospiel Denver was right before everything started locking down. I actually didn't go to Protospiel Denver. I technically went, I'd just dropped off some prizes. So I dropped off a couple of copies of Fry Thief as prizes. And then I walked around the room and then I saw your game and I took a picture of it and basically like walked out.

Why Make a Game Out of Cloth & Wood?

Patrick: So I was there for maybe a total of 30 minutes, but your game stood out to me. It had table presence. And what was really cool about your game is all the components were made out of wood, cloth and paper. And I don't think any cardboard. The board was a cloth, it could have been a bandana. The board was a piece of cloth that you were like unfolded and rolled or whatever. And it was the center of the board and there wood pieces and some paper cards. So it stuck out to me, but I'm curious why did you make that choice? Why not use the standard cardboard board as an example?

Aaron: Well, my background is in theater. I don't really practice a lot of theater currently in these days, but I'm always thinking about the stage and props, props in particular. I've always loved playing with props. And board games have a unique aspect to them. And that is realness. That is it's touch. There's feel, there's a presentation to board games that you don't get through video games or any sort of virtual medium. And I wanted to make something that was inherently attractive. People have to look at it and say, “Wow, that is not a board game I've played before.” And this isn't to dog any board game with lots of little tokens, character sheets and whatever. But I wanted to make something that you saw and you were like, “Is that a board game? Is this something entirely different?”

Aaron: I wanted it to feel you physically touching the pieces is part of the story, the experience of playing a game. And I was immediately struck, there's this funny memory of mine where, Jumanji was a huge experience for me as a child and watching that movie, it's a fun crazy adventure. But the board in that movie it's elemental. It's like it's speaking to you. And they make that very clear in the movie. And then one day, my family went to the store and we bought the actual copy of Jumanji, the board game. And it was nothing like the board game it was in the movie. It was so different. And it was the waxed cardboard board the pieces were made out of plastic.

Aaron: And of course it can't be exactly like the movie, right? There's a lot of Hollywood magic that goes into that. But I wanted to make something that felt real. It felt like no other board game you've ever touched or seen before. And particularly with my game, I wanted to create something that felt like it came out of the 17th century. It's been shoved in an addict somewhere and hasn't been touched for 300 years.

And then you pull it out and it's like, the spot the box is made of wood. And the board is made out of this cloth material and there's resources in the games, but they're using a different colored buttons. And the cards have this like wood cut ink print on it. So everything, I really try to make few, it just was tucked away for hundreds of years, and then you pulled it out and it was like, what's the story behind this game? Who played this game 300 years ago using pieces around the house to really create the experience. So that's a lot of the inspiration definitely.

Patrick: I love hearing the Jumanji aspect where you loved the board in the original movie. And it's really cool. And even the pieces of Jumanji they're really cool pieces that I would pick up and feel and play with. And then you get a board game and it's something a little bit closer to mass manufactured monopoly where everything is a lot cheaper and isn't like handcrafted wood.

Would You Give Up That Tactile Experience?

Patrick: So I get that. Well, let me ask you this then. So if you really care about all these aesthetics, and I totally understand that. And I think a lot of my games, I care a lot about the look and feel of them. Would you only want to make this version of the game, or would you ever want to make a more traditional version? How about this? If a publisher said, “Hey, I will publish your game for you. Well, we got to use a regular board, we got to use regular boring cards. We got to use regular plastic pieces instead of wood pieces, whatever.” Would you be willing to do that? Or is that something you're willing to compromise on? Or is it something that's so important that you wouldn't?

Aaron: This is like one of the age old questions of my development in the game. Is whether or not to make that standard copy and then make a limited edition, collector's edition version with all the fancy pieces. I've had a lot of play testers, mostly my friends who say this game is great, but social deduction really lies in sort of a more inexpensive price range. Sort of like the $20 to $30.

Aaron: And I've always wanted this game to feel like a premium offering. And to be honest with you, I don't think I've come to the decision of like a standard over a collectors' version of the game. Maybe in sort of my head like a game designer artist or whatever, it's like, it's got to be the certain way, it's got to be with the pieces that I want. And that stubborn, artistic vision of the game.

Aaron: I'm not sure yet. I'm not sure if I want to separate the two of those. If I could find a way to have manufacturing costs be lower, just offering the sort of premium version of the game. I would love to just offer that one, because I think that's the true experience. And I've had a lot of people who look at the board, look at the box and they're like you know what? I would pay 50, 60 bucks for this game right now. And who knows maybe the board game community at large doesn't want that sort of experience. Because it is I'd say complexity wise, my game's about a two out of five. Most board games like Gloomhaven, they want this $100, $200 like expensive set. So, yeah, I'm still kind of figuring that version out, the price range out for that.

Patrick: Cool. Got it. I mean, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. It takes a while to figure that out. But it's important you, the aesthetics.

Aaron: Definitely, definitely important to me.

How Do You Make The Most of Multiple Rooms?

Patrick: So let me go into the gameplay because, so I think I approached the game because of the table presence it just looked different and I was curious. But then when I was sort of standing near and watching you play your game, I noticed that people got up from the table and then they're like, at first I thought you were actually done. I thought the playgroups was over. And I thought people were like going to find another game, but people were actually going into either separate rooms or just very far apart in this big conference room. So your game makes use of multiple rooms. Why did you make a game that uses either multiple rooms or people have to be separated? Why do people have to get up from the table? Why did you make that decision?

Aaron: I believe in space a lot when it comes to designing the experience. There was a great course on Udemy called the board game developer and it was directed by this guy, Yann Burrett, and Rick Davidson.

And they said really consider space as part of your game. Where are you playing your game? And in creating a social deduction, I wanted to create these tight spaces of a few people where you could have private conversations and you could talk about your strategy or who you trusted, or who you had an alliance with. Really create like a bond with other players. And that was something I picked up in college. I would host a lot of these ultimate werewolf nights a week after week after week after week. And you notice that players who sit close together would always develop a stronger communicative bond than players who sat across the room.

Aaron: And it was fun. You had this tight friendship and alliance. You don't know if that other person's good or bad, but the conversation itself was an interesting part of gameplay for me. So I wanted to create that. I wanted to build that right into the DNA of the game. Really put two players together in a close quarters, your bedroom, or your bathroom, and get them to play with some cards, talk about what's going on. And then come back to the game as a community and with all the players and have some speculation like, hey, did Mary and John, are they tight? Are they speculative of each other?

Aaron: I really found that to be an important part of the social deduction for me. But it's funny that at a con you see people kid up from this table and go to like different corners of the convention hall and then come back to play. And it's funny how many people see that and they like what's going on there. And it's sort of the advertisement that I never thought of at a convention that's really fun for me.

Patrick: Yeah. So what I think is interesting is I think space, or even player seating arrangement matters a lot in certain games. I think back a couple of years to when I was playing 7 Wonders. And I remember every time we brought in a new person who had never played the game, the person I think it was to the left or to the right, I think it was a person to the left always seem to win because if a whole bunch of experienced players, they know exactly what to draft as good for them and what to do “hate draft” so that the person next to them doesn't get a big advantage, but new players don't know how to do that. And so if you were sitting directly to the left of someone, you have this huge advantage, and if you could get up and move throughout the game, then it wouldn't always be the person to the left of the newbie who would win the game.

I don't think enough game think about space. And to be totally fair in my games, I don't think about space that often, or the seating arrangement or what happens if it's all experienced players in one new person, like what happens? I love that in your game I can get up, and talk to the person across the side of the table from me and have a private conversation about the strategy or my strategy, or try to convince them to do something for me without it totally being in the open. So I think it's really, really cool.

Aaron: Totally. Yeah. And one last thing about it is that I think it really breaks up the monotony of sitting in playing an hour and a half game. Attention span is really important for game designers to consider as a currency of theirs and a player. And making sure your game design, your mechanics are really tight and holding the attention is very important. And this was sort of just like a cheap trick of getting people to stand up, right. It's like standing up in your classroom and like doing jumping jacks to break up the lesson. I feel like it really dials in the attention really well.

How Much Time Do You Spend Designing Games?

Patrick: Awesome. So let me move on to some other questions. I think sometimes this is a “boring question” but I think during a pandemic where most of us are still stuck at home how much time do you spend designing games?

Aaron: Currently zero. It's been pretty tough to really stick to your craft. I think during the COVID-19 outbreak. For me in particular, it's really destroyed a lot of my routine and I'm not somebody who works well from home. I live in a tiny studio apartment with my wonderful girlfriend and my dog, and there's not a lot of space. I didn't set up an office space particularly in my apartment to do that. So I would go to the commons area of my apartments or to a coffee shop, to work on game design. And I don't really have a lot of that anymore. And it's okay to like put a pause on your game design during these times. I think that's important for people to understand, but boy, when I was working hard trying to get this came out, it was three plus hours a day.

Aaron: When you're first designing a game that you're just in love with, you don't even think about how much time it is, right. The three hours is nothing because you're just having fun tuning the mechanics or find an artwork that you've like or designing your cards.

Yeah, it was three plus hours on top of a full time job. And there was a lot of sacrifice in there where it would be Saturday night and my friends would be going out for drinks. And I just wanted to work on this board game. And so you look back and you think like, wow, it's a lot of time that you put into that, but it's really worth it in the end especially if you you love it, you don't even think about putting that much time into it.

How Much Time Do You Spend Researching a Game

Patrick: Yeah, totally I hear that. Love it. So how about this? What type of research do you do or how much time do you spend researching before you start a game design?

Aaron: For this game, there was a lot of research that went into it. A part of me is wanted to stay pretty true to historical accuracy. And to that, I mean, I wanted to have terms and words that are of the time period. I wanted to make sure the layout of the game felt like I mentioned earlier, straight out of the 17th century. So I was researching books that were written in the 16 hundreds. There was this book called A Modest Enquiry Into the Nature of Witchcraft by John Hale. And I just found a PDF file of this book and I would just start to read passages, written in this old English just to really get an idea of how to phrase things.

And there's weird little idiosyncrasies in old English that you don't have in modern English. All the Us were turned into Vs back then. Or the implementation of this character called the long S which looks like a cursive F without the little line in the middle, but that was used as an S character in weird places.

So I spent a lot of time as someone who wants to build an experience, looking at those examples and really trying to implement that into the experience. But it was lots of research. I'm sort of a research themed before making game decisions.

What Types of Games Do You Like to Design?

Patrick: Awesome. What do you like to design? What type of games?

Aaron: Oh, honestly social deduction is kind of my favorite. I think that's from spending countless numbers of hours playing the resistance and ultimately Werewolf. I think social deduction is so much fun because I have a problem with cooperative games where I have to… I have two sort of problems with a lot of game designs. One of them is in cooperative play, where everyone's on the same team against a board game. And one player decides to quarterback, right?

This is kind of a common problem in board game design. One player knows the game through and through and just tells everybody else the best moves to make. And it takes you out of it, right? That's not the way the game was meant to be played. So I like social deduction because it accounts for that because you can't trust someone who's quarterbacking, they might be bad.

So you can't trust their leadership so much. It throws a monkey wrench, and I'm not also particularly fond of board games that are micro farms, where there isn't a lot of player interaction. And it's really about the best efficiency of one player doing their own little resource farming. So maximize the output of corn or energy like power grid or something, love those games. I do. I think there's a special place for them.

I just wanted to always make things that there was drama and conflict, and I think social deduction and secret roles is a quick way to just really up the arguments and the heat.

What Games Inspire You?

Patrick: Yeah. I love that. And I think I agree. Yeah. If you want a certain atmosphere, then social deduction can very quickly add conflict to the group. So I tick that. Are there any games that inspire you and make you want to make better cooler stuff?

Aaron: Oh yeah. Games that inspire me. Well, there's this one game that I haven't played yet. But just hearing about it and seeing screenshots of it just like, make me love the intuitive nature of game designers and how clever people can be. It's this one game called Nyctophobia. Have you heard of that one?

Patrick: Yeah. I haven't played it. So I don't know if you've played it and maybe you can tell me a little more of your experience you have, but it's a game where you put on a blindfold, every player puts on a blindfold and you play by feeling out the board with your hands.

Aaron: And the premise is, there's a killer player that's trying to follow you. And you're like trapped in the woods and you're trying to escape, but just that immersion is from the get go just totally different and wild. I love stuff like that. I love stuff that just thinks wildly outside the box and works. So that game is incredible. Yeah, there's other games that inspire me for sure. Like games that aren't necessarily board games, The Last of Us and Journey. If I can go outside the realm of board games for a minute, those two games of the entire reason why I wanted to make games and design experiences around mechanics.

Aaron: There's a lot of emotion that happens in the last of us in Journey that, I think is important for people to understand is the game design is like an experience and not just the mechanics that you play with but what you really take away from the game. And the story of your game is through the mechanics that you present to the player. So if you want to make them feel like a bandit or a contraband thief, right. You make them play Sheriff of Nottingham.

Aaron: You have them put other resources in and really make them feel they're getting away with thievery. So, yeah, I love, I'm a big fan of the story that's told through gameplay mechanics like Nyctophobia, Last of Us, even Fireball Island's got a great presentation right off the bat, man. You can't get over how fun that board is and you just want to have an adventure out there. So yeah.

Patrick: Yeah. I dig all those. I actually haven't played Nyctophobia. I've seen it played at cons. It sounds great. I've listened to the game designer Catherine Stippell talk about it and it sounds fantastic, but I've yet to play it, but you're right it is totally inspiring.

There's a million podcasts on this, I will let the listeners Google it and find out why the game designer created it this way. There's a really cool story, but it's amazing the sense of theory you can create. Just having players close their eyes, and then move around basically amazed with their eyes closed using their hands to guide them. It's fascinating.

Aaron: Yeah. Oh yeah. I love it. I love it.

What Resources Do You Recommend to Aspiring Game Designers?

Patrick: Cool. So, let me move on to some of the ending questions here. I mean, you've been doing this for a little bit, but this is like your first really big game design. What's the resource you'd recommend to another Indie game designer?

Aaron: Man. I think the first and last resource I would ever recommend to somebody is this book called The Art of Game Design by Jesse Schell. It's more intended for the video game design. I think if I remember correctly, that's he says pretty much upfront that's where the book is headed is for people who are interested in that.

Aaron: But there are so many incredible lessons that Jesse Schell talks about in the book. Just to think about your game as an experience and not just the mechanics. It's not the graphics or the pieces of your game. It's the experience that you're after. So if you're after an adventurous experience, then you need something that's quick and it's feels… You got to get your heart thumping. And that's not easy for board games to do that, but there's some games that have time constraints that do it very well.

And there was this one story, I remember he talks about in the book that I took away and I was like, wow, this is probably one of my favorite lessons I've learned as a designer. He was at this Yo-Yo competition or something in a gymnasium. And the author Jesse Schell was an aspiring Yo-Yo trickster, I guess.

And he's trying all these different things, he's trying to do like walk the dogs. I'm not one for Yo-Yo terms. But trying to imitate other people's tricks. And there's this one guy in the gymnasium who was just doing these wild moves, things that nobody's ever seen before. And it was very inspiring to the author and he walks up to him and he asks he's like, “How can I be as good as you, you just don't apply to any of these rules.”

And this guy, this master of Yo-Yo tricks, he said, “Look everywhere else for what inspires you. Don't look at what other people are doing necessarily in the field that you're interested in. Get inspiration from outside, have that abstract feeling of experience and intrigue. Take that and bring that into your craft because if you're just imitating what everybody else does, it is always going to be imitation, but you can take real life examples and real world experiences that you have and you can implement that into your game. And the love is going to show a lot more than if you're just trying to rehash monopoly and just redo the board because everybody can see that.”

Patrick: Cool.

Aaron: So this book, The Art of Game Design, it's really special.

What's the Best Money You've Spent on Game Design

Patrick: Awesome. I like it. I've heard it recommended by other people. So it's nice to hear it again. And then I think to me that means that it's definitely worth looking into, and I haven't read this one yet, so we'll definitely look into it. How about this? What's the best money you've spent? What's worth every single cent you put into it?

Aaron: This $25 paper cutter that I bought. This one's really funny. Yeah, you think it's like these big purchases that you have for game design, but there was this one… Yeah, I just bought this office paper cutter for 25 bucks on Amazon. And I've used that more than anything else when it comes to designing, prototypes, you're drawing out your cards, but you would not believe how many times do you just cut out things? If you're printing it out your cards on a sheet, like a template. I've used that paper cutter for at least a hundred hours plus, and it's still going. So that's pretty much the best money I spent.

What Does Success Look Like?

Patrick: Awesome. What about this? What does success look like in the board game world?

Aaron: Yeah, that's for me, I'm a pretty simple guy. I think if one person that I never met before ends up buying my game saying, “Hey, that game is for me, it's a social deduction. I want to buy it.” And spend 50, 60 bucks. If I've never met that person, talk to that person had any sort of connection to it. I think that's success. Obviously I would love for my game to sell hundreds of thousands of copies but this being my first game, I don't necessarily know where it can go and yeah, I would just be so in love if somebody was just like, yeah, that's cool. I don't know this guy, I don't know, Alone in the Woods or what he's about, but I'll buy his game, man.

Patrick: That's great. I love chatting with people who are working on their first game. I think you'll hear stuff like what you're saying, right. I just want one person to play. Then also I've talked to people who've had six or seven kickstarters and they're like, “Yeah, I want to get to the target.” And there's like very different answers depending on where you're at, but it's nice to remember those very first goals. And that they're still very valuable. And for some people, that's, it, they're happy with their one random person plays their game and they're happy. So it's always really good to hear that.

Aaron: Totally. Yeah. I think keeping it very small and manageable is sort of important and not to get discouraged if it doesn't sell. Your Kickstarter might flop but you can let that discourage you. If it flops, maybe there were 50 people who did back it, who don't know you. And that should be inspirational and should give you a motivation to get up and try again and keep going. Just knowing that other people are interested in your work.

Overrated Underrated Game

Patrick: Absolutely. So let's move into the ending game called overrated underrated. Have you heard about this?

Aaron: No, I haven't. What's this?

Patrick: Great. I'm going to give you a word or phrase, and then you have to tell me if it's overrated or underrated. So if I just said gift bags, you would say, oh, they're underrated because they show your appreciation for someone coming to your event. Something like that. It makes sense?

Aaron: Okay. Yeah.

Patrick: All right. So first one drafting games are they overrated or are they underrated?

Aaron: I think they're underrated. I think drafting games are really special for crafting your own game, play your own strategy. I think that gets a lot of player expression in those. I would love to see even more drafting games inserted into the community, but not necessary try to copy, a dominion or so. But really try to like figure out some new exciting ways to explore a draft. Yeah. I love that genre.

Patrick: Cool. How about this, The Blair Witch Project as in the movie, overrated or underrated?

Aaron: I think it's underrated. I think The Blair Witch Project, I watched it just a couple of years ago. Incredible. It's an incredible movie. I know people have problems with shaky cams, or you don't ever see the monster or witch or whatever in the movie. But my gosh, if you really sit back and just imagine yourself as those characters, it's horrifying. It's a horrifying premise. And I think the acting in the movie is actually really good at conveying how just helpless you would feel if you were lost in the woods. That's no absolutely nuts.

Patrick: Cool. How about this? So I don't know how to phrase this one. So I'm going to say player avatar miniatures. What I mean by that basically games that aren't miniature games, but where the players have… How about this?

Aaron: Like more hair clips?

Patrick: Games where you could have just a simple meeple to represent you. Maybe different colored maples, but instead they have a miniature to represent them. Is that overrated or underrated?

Aaron: Whew. Man, that's a really difficult one because… Oh, man. I'm all for the abstract, but I think allowing people to embody a character is also a fun way to imagine yourself. One of my favorite games is Betrayal at House on the Hill and that game could be represented with just abstract little wood tokens. But you get these like nice fun characters that have a little backstory to them. And it kind of makes you want to play a certain way. I think honestly, I guess I'm just an underrated guy all over. I think they're underrated because sort of role playing as another character outside of yourself also frees up a lot of expression for people. Maybe it's easier for them to loose because it's not themselves? Yeah, I would say also underrated.

Patrick: Awesome. I'm just going to go something that's coming up a couple of weeks or our episode will launch, 4th of July overrated or underrated.

Aaron: Whew, man, 4th of July has always been a special place in my heart. It's hot dogs and hamburgers. There's not much better than that. I don't think the hype around 4th of July is overrated. I think it's one of the best parties you can ever have. So, yeah, I love the 4th of July. Definitely sign me up.

Wrap Up

Patrick: Underrated. All right, cool. Aaron, thank you so much for being on the show.

Aaron: Patrick, thank you for having me, man. This is so much fun.

Patrick: Where can people find you and your game online, Alone in the Woods?

Aaron: Alone in the Woods has a Twitter page, the handle is @AloneintheVVood without the S and what is spelled with two V's because apparently somebody else took the regular w for their handles. So, yeah, @AloneintheVVood on Twitter.

Patrick: Awesome. Listeners if you like this podcast, please leave us a review on iTunes or wherever you hear this. If you leave a review Aaron will not leave you alone in the woods the next time you go walking. So for not getting murdered in the woods, pretty good deal.

Patrick: As I've mentioned many times before I'm sharing all sorts of progress behind the scene stuff, as well as the things I'm learning like publisher contracts and what I like and dislike about certain publisher contracts on my Patreon page. So if you want to follow those developments and see behind the scenes and see some publisher contracts I've seen you can join up. You can visit the site the indieboardgamedesigners.com. You can follow me on Twitter and BoardGameGeek, I am @BFTrick on both platforms, [inaudible 00:39:55] Until next time everyone.