Patrick Rauland: Hello everyone, and welcome to the Indie Board Game Designers podcast. My name is Patrick Rauland. Today, we're going to be talking with Kim McGrigg, who is the designer behind Not a Problem, which is a party game, where every turn you create a brand new product to solve a problem and then pitch it to an investor. Kim is the first-time guest to my hometown Denver, so welcome, Kim.
Kim McGrigg: Oh, thanks so much for having me.
Patrick Rauland: And Denver game designers unite, I guess?
Kim McGrigg: Absolutely. I'll have to introduce you to a few others. We have some good game designers in Denver.
Patrick Rauland: There is absolutely a good game design community, and I've recently been trying to talk with people about how we can bring that community together because a lot of us don't know about each other. I just really want there to be one global community somehow, and then there's different events at different places but like one central place, because otherwise, I would have never met someone like you if our friend Ryan didn't introduce us.
Kim McGrigg: Yeah, exactly. That sounds like a good idea. So I'll be your first member.
How Did You Get Into Board Games?
Patrick Rauland: Awesome. Great. All right, so Kim, let's get started. I like to ask everyone this question. It just sets the baseline. But how did you get into board games and board game design?
Kim McGrigg: I'm a person that has a lot of ideas. So I didn't set out necessarily to create a board game. I set out to actually make one of my ideas come to reality. The game was the idea that I decided to run with because I felt like I could … It was basically a feasibility thing. Some of my other ideas are really complicated, and I thought, “For a first-time entrepreneur, I'm going to try board game design.” I'm not saying it's easy, because I learned that it certainly is not. But I've enjoyed every second of it, and I hope to do it again, actually.
Patrick Rauland: Yeah, so would you say you're more of an entrepreneur, and board game was the first idea that just seemed within grasp?
Kim McGrigg: Exactly, yeah. Some of my other ideas involved a lot of technology and things that I just … I didn't know where to start. So I thought, “Board games are something I understand, I love, I've been interacting with my entire life.” So it felt a little more manageable to me. But like I said, “I was surprised at how much time and effort it actually took.”
Patrick Rauland: Was this your first entrepreneurial adventure? Have you made other products before? Is this your first big solo project?
Kim McGrigg: It is my first project. I had started a few others, started researching … you know, looking at patents. I had developed a few websites, but none of them got very far. So this is the first one that I said I really committed to.
How Is Being An Entrepreneur Different Than a Being a Board Game Designer?
Patrick Rauland: I really like that, and I'm really happy to have you on the podcast because I think you … I mean, you have a unique perspective, right? I think you are an entrepreneur who designed a game, and I'm wondering. Are there things that you view differently than like a board game designer would? So someone who's been designing games just because they love games, but they're definitely not an entrepreneur. Are there things that maybe you see that they don't? Or is there a different way of looking at the board game world?
Kim McGrigg: Absolutely. When I was going through the process, I met a lot of people who were amazing. But they were obviously really into gaming. And so, whether or not their game had mass appeal, it wasn't really a concern to them. So I think maybe one way I look at it a little bit differently is, I was really looking for something that I could also market on the other side when I finally made it happen. So, in that way, I probably am a little bit different than other designers.
Patrick Rauland: I really like that. I think a lot of game designers. I don't want to say they view it as a … Maybe they view it as a hobby or art. Then, with that, you don't always have to sell your hobby or art. And for you, I think it was both, right? It was like a creative outlet, and it was also, from the outset, a project that had to make some money.
Kim McGrigg: Yeah, absolutely. I'm really cheap. As a human, I guess I'll call it frugal.
Patrick Rauland: Yeah, that's the nice way.
Kim McGrigg: Yeah. So, I definitely was looking for a project that at a minimum I wouldn't lose money. But if I happen to make a little bit of profit, that would be fantastic as well.
How Do You Prioritize Your Projects?
Patrick Rauland: So from the other interviews I listened to, it seems like you have a lot of ideas, both in the board game world and outside. How do you decide what problems you work on?
Kim McGrigg: This was many years ago. But my first idea for an entrepreneurial venture was to actually … I started building this website that was called Ideas by the Gallon. People would present me with a project online, and then I would give them an idea. I would charge them whatever the current average gallon of gas was, the cost of a gallon of gas.
Patrick Rauland: Whoa.
Kim McGrigg: I know. I'm not really sure where that one came from, but that was my first venture. Since then, I've had some really interesting other ideas, mostly dog-related, as I stare at my sleeping dog in front of me. I went with this one because I was really excited about it. I think that's the difference. I mean, just having a lot of ideas, that's great. But if you're not putting action behind it, then it's just entertainment. So this one, I was really, really excited about, and that's why I'm committing to this. That's really the thing that made the difference is just the declaration that, “No, I'm committing to this. Even if other ideas come, in the meantime, I'm not going to get distracted.”
Patrick Rauland: Do you think you could have finished the game if you didn't make that commitment?
Kim McGrigg: Oh, never. Never. I had to learn every single thing as I went along. I mean, I didn't know how to form a company. You know, from the very beginning, like an LLC, and you need an EIN number and all of these things. I didn't know anything about play testing and prototyping and manufacturing and shipping and design. I mean, dealing with customs, like all that was an education. If I hadn't committed and been super excited, there were a million places along the way I would have quit.
How Important is Passion to a Project?
Patrick Rauland: So I make this podcast, well, primarily for me, but also for other aspiring game designers. I mean, would you say then maybe one of the things that you picked up is you just have to be all in to your idea and you have to be passionate, otherwise you're never going to get through those hurdles?
Kim McGrigg: Absolutely, I totally agree with that. I think that's true outside of the game world, too. If you're someone who's just trying to start a business, that excitement and passion just has to be there. Then when you lose it along the way, which of course you do because there are setbacks, and things take longer than you think they will, and they cost more than you think they will to find ways, to re-energize. The way that I did that is I ended up getting invited by a number of schools to come talk to students about the journey.
Kim McGrigg: Every time I did that, I was so excited again to get back to work. I almost felt like I had to prove it to the kids.
Patrick Rauland: Sure, I totally get that. I imagine seeing people actually play your game. It's like, you know, the finished game. You're like, “Oh okay. I can … ” It's kind of like seeing the finish line.
Kim McGrigg: Yeah, it's terrifying actually. Even today, it's terrifying to see people play the game. But I had people play the game at all different stages, and oh my gosh. It is so stressful to give them your baby and be like, “Do you love it?” You know?
What Would You Add to a Game?
Patrick Rauland: Yes, totally. So in one of the other interviews that I was reading up on just to make sure that I ask the right questions here, I think you mentioned something about where you were … I think you were going out around town. You were trying to find a game. You found a couple, and you bought them, but they didn't quite make the cut, or the current games out there didn't have what you were looking for. What do you think games are missing that you want to see more of?
Kim McGrigg: Well, I feel like a lot of the games that … Well, the game we were playing over and over again is Cards Against Humanity. It's obviously a wildly successful, terrific game. But after a while … And you're familiar with the cards.
Patrick Rauland: Yeah.
Kim McGrigg: We were just ready for something else. And, I felt like the games that we were buying were almost … They were purposely trying to be … I don't know … risqué or … I felt that they were really forced, and they weren't allowing the player to be the one that's providing the fun. So I'm like, “People are more creative than this.” You know, that creativity is the ultimate goal. There's a lot going on in the game, and it's one of the reasons why my best target market is teachers. But if you were to ask me, like if the game could do anything for someone, I would be like, “It gives them a chance to be creative,” because we just don't have that much opportunity anymore. I feel like that's missing today. So, that was a long answer. A long [crosstalk 00:10:50] answer.
Patrick Rauland: No, no. I really, really like that. Yeah, cool. No, I really, really like that. Okay, so you talked about play testing, and how do you … Especially for someone who maybe wasn't as tuned into the board game designing world, how did you find people to play test with?
Kim McGrigg: So I started with safe people. My first … I actually still have it. My first prototype is really, really ugly. I just took pieces from other games and wrote things on sticky notes and shoved them in a blank box, and that was my first game. Then I would get my kids and their friends and my friends and my co-workers, you know, my safe people to play the game. Then as the game got better, based on their feedback, I started spending a little more time putting the prototypes together. Still, a whole bunch of stuff you buy at the craft store. I home-made it all.
Kim McGrigg: But they were starting to … by the end to look pretty legit, and that's when I went out, and there are some groups that play games at breweries on different days, and I literally would just walk up to strangers and ask them if they'd play, which is terrifying. I also did a play test at Board Game Republic and at The Wizard's Chest. So after I did, like people playing games at bars, I actually went where gamers play. Their feedback was just so fantastic. I can't thank that community enough. They're so generous with their knowledge.
Patrick Rauland: Yeah, the play-testing community is phenomenal, right?
Kim McGrigg: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Patrick Rauland: Not only will they play your game, which is probably not as polished as already-published games. But they'll sit there for 30 minutes and give you feedback.
Kim McGrigg: Yes, exactly. I mean, even things like that I would never consider. Like my prototype, I had this box design that was fairly thin because I was thinking for shipping, and I had this plan. Then they're like, “No, it has to be thick enough to stand up on the shelf.” You know, things I would have never thought of. But it makes all the difference in the world.
Patrick Rauland: I have to followups. The first one, is there … So I knew about the play-testing group at Board Game Republic. That's a local store here. I did not know about the one at the … Is there one at The Wizard's Chest?
Kim McGrigg: Yes. Actually, I requested, so I just emailed The Wizard and said, “I have this game.” He said, “There's a group that gets together.” Don't quote me on this. But I think it was every Wednesday night, and I was welcomed to come. He put a group together, and I brought M&M's, and they did, like a blind play test, so I couldn't even speak to them, which is-
Patrick Rauland: Oh wow.
Kim McGrigg: Yeah, so they had to read the directions as if they had just purchased and opened the box. You just want to help them so much. You know?
Patrick Rauland: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kim McGrigg: But that's where I really am like, “Okay, now, I'm getting pretty polished,” based on that kind of feedback that I got there.
Patrick Rauland: Okay, wow. So number one, that's kind of amazing that I feel like I'm pretty tuned into the board game design world. I got seriously into it last fall, and I've been almost into it a year now, and I did not know about that play-testing group at The Wizard's Chest. So it's fascinating that there's lots of … I wonder if other communities are like this that where there's lots of little individual things going on, but there's no way to know about it unless you go to those stores, unless you ask around.
Kim McGrigg: Oh absolutely. I recently joined a Women in Toys group that I, of course, didn't-
Patrick Rauland: They didn't exist.
Kim McGrigg: I had no idea it existed. It's a national group, but they have a local Denver chapter. They have been terrific role models for me.
When Do You Show Your Game to the Broader Board Game Community?
Patrick Rauland: Yes, and I had no idea that existed. But that one makes a little bit more sense for me. So I was curious, Kim. At what point do you think it's safe to … Maybe safe isn't the right word. At what point do you think it's appropriate to bring your game from your family and friends out to the broader board game community?
Kim McGrigg: I think it depends on how thick your skin is. It really is just a matter of if you're completely open to the feedback. I think it's great to go really early. I mean, I've done some play testing for people who literally were still at the sticky note stage, and they're like, “This is just a concept. I just want to know what to think of it,” and I thought that was terrific. I waited a little while because I was a little nervous, but I'd say, “Sooner rather than later.”
Patrick Rauland: No, that totally makes sense to me. But I always want to have it be really polished, right? Like I want it to be perfect. I don't want to show it to play testers, and they're like, “Patrick, this is the perfect game. Go publish.”
Kim McGrigg: Oh yeah.
Patrick Rauland: But that doesn't happen.
Kim McGrigg: You're like, “Thank you. That's exactly why I'm here.”
What Research Do You Do?
Patrick Rauland: Yeah, I need validation. Cool, okay. So what kind of research did you do before you started designing this game? Did you try to see if other games were out there like this or something like that?
Kim McGrigg: Yeah. So actually, the first game that I designed I was so excited about it, and I ran out and told … I have two teenagers … told the kids like, “These are my ideas. I have this idea.” My son was like, “Oh, that game's really fun. We play it at Andy's house all the time.”
Patrick Rauland: Oh.
Kim McGrigg: I'm like, “Oh shoot.” So that was a real wake-up call that I needed to do a lot more research for. I got very excited about a concept. So actually, one of the very first things that I did is I met with a woman in Denver. She's an attorney, but she had created a board game in the past as like a side business. I met with her, and she was so helpful, and then I spent about a billion hours on Board Game Geek, which, and I'm sure you're very familiar with that website. But I can't believe how much information there is on how to create a game.
Kim McGrigg: Then after that, the game is really … It came to me, like I didn't force it. I've spent the last many years for a job telling kids that they can do anything they set their minds to. They can be entrepreneurial. They could be creative. They can be ready for the workforce in whatever way that means. So the idea for the game came very, very naturally to me. So I didn't have to struggle for the concept other than getting over the hurdle that my first idea was already a game.
Patrick Rauland: Yeah, I know that that's definitely scary. I think the more I look around, the more I'm like, “Oh God. There's so many games it's hard not to copy or not to be inspired by someone,” because yeah, there's just so many games out there, right?
Kim McGrigg: Yeah, that's exactly true. I mean, my game though is pretty simple. When I did some play-testing, I mean, some people are out there putting together these glorious, beautiful games with long stories and complicated characters. My game is quite a bit simpler than that, and that's how I needed it to be to make it happen.
What's The Best Money You Spent?
Patrick Rauland: Sure. I totally get that. Okay, there's something there I wanted to ask or follow up on. Hold on. I'll give myself one second to think of it and … No, it's gone. All right. So I'll move on to the next question. What was the best money you ever spent while designing this game?
Kim McGrigg: The best money I spent, I spend about $3 or $4 to buy someone coffee, and that resulted in my biggest order to date, which was 100 game order.
Patrick Rauland: Whoa.
Kim McGrigg: So that was by far the best money I spent. It was the head of DECA for Colorado. DECA is a group that runs in high schools and actually also in colleges that helps kids get ready for careers in marketing. They teach them finance, hospitality, all sorts of things. These are really for emerging leaders and entrepreneurs, and he ordered 100 games, and that was the best … not only the best money but the best meeting I've ever had.
Patrick Rauland: That's great.
The Ins & Outs of Customs
Kim McGrigg: Yeah, and then in addition to that, I think figuring out what I was capable of doing and then paying professionals for what I absolutely did not know how to do. I finally had to get help with importing. I could not figure it out. I could not figure out customs. So that was good money.
Patrick Rauland: So for those of us … So, I have never imported something. What is challenging about that? What do we need to watch out for?
Kim McGrigg: I mean, I personally found the entire thing just to be completely baffling. So, like who to pay, when to pay. Then you would get it. So I manufactured in China, and so, I had basically set up … And I did a decent job after so much effort of getting things paid so that they would make it to port. Then there's a whole inspection process that has to happen that you pay for. Then you still have to get it to Denver, which I had no idea how to do.
Kim McGrigg: And finally, it was just like, “I am out of my league.” But there are lots of people out there that will help.
Patrick Rauland: See, I haven't crossed that bridge yet, so I have no idea. Yeah, I have no idea how hard that is, and there's a part of me that if I ever do make a … If I ever do self-publish, there's a part of me that just wants to go either hire someone to do that or just find a slightly more expensive manufacturer here in the US and then not have to worry about it.
Kim McGrigg: Yeah, I can see that, and I think the problem is I couldn't find a manufacturer in the US that was only slightly higher. The difference was … I mean, per game … I mean, I'm talking $2 to $3 different per game. I just couldn't do it even though I wanted to.
Patrick Rauland: Yeah, totally. Just for context, how much is your game?
Kim McGrigg: It sells for $25.
Patrick Rauland: Yeah, I mean, that's a big chunk. That's an extra 10% of your margin.
Kim McGrigg: Oh absolutely. I mean, all the money I spent to produce the game. The big surprise for me was the cost of shipping the games.
Patrick Rauland: Oh absolutely.
Kim McGrigg: Oh my goodness. I could not believe … I still can't believe. Actually, right before we started talking, I was packaging up some shipments, and I'm still shocked when I see the postage.
Patrick Rauland: Yeah, totally. I look at Kickstarter. Sometimes, like the people who put up Kickstarters, they have little pie charts of where all the money's going. I swear to God, shipping sometimes is over 25%, which is so, so high, right? It's like when you think about shipping, you're not making anything. You're just moving it that it's such a high part of the cost.
Kim McGrigg: Yeah, I mean, to say it another way, it costs me more to ship one game than it did to manufacture that game.
Patrick Rauland: Wow.
Kim McGrigg: So that one was really shocking. And of course, that's not even including the supplies, the boxes, the tape. I feel like I'm buying tape every day.
Patrick Rauland: Every day?
Kim McGrigg: Yeah, every day. I'm shipping myself, so there's of course a time component and then the trips to the post office.
How Do You Use Board Game Geek?
Patrick Rauland: I remembered my questions from before, so I'm going to go back to it. So you said you looked up … You were on Board Game Geek, and you found value in there. My question was, I am on Board Game Geek, and I pretty much just log my plays and sometimes look up games or sometimes leave my own reviews of games. I find that site so confusing and hard to navigate. Where do you find this magical game design advice?
Kim McGrigg: So definitely in the forums. There are, especially like I had a ton of questions about copyright, trademark. All of those things. There's actually a fantastic thread that covers that in a lot of detail. So yeah, all the forums is where I go. I know there's still a lot there, but under Board Game Design, there's some really big categories that are terrific.
Patrick Rauland: Cool. Man, I haven't spent any time there. I think me … So in my day job, I work in the web, and I help people set up online stores. The graphic design is so atrocious to me that I have to … I hiss like a vampire when there's a cross in front of you, right? I can't look at it, but I'm sure there's lots of really good information. So I'll work on that.
Kim McGrigg: The one that I actually have bookmarked is called Myth-busting Game Design and Copyright Trademarks and Patents. I mean, it's everything to me.
Patrick Rauland: So that's great.
Kim McGrigg: So go back, go back and put on your rose-colored glasses.
Patrick Rauland: I know. All right. I will do that. And for the listeners, I'll grab that link from you at the end, and I'll include it in the show notes so they don't have to go wade through the board.
Kim McGrigg: Perfect.
How Did You Have Such a Successful Kickstarter?
Patrick Rauland: Okay, so, you had a really successful Kickstarter making over 10 grand, which I think for a first-time entrepreneurial endeavor, for a first-time board game creator, that is phenomenal. What was your magic in doing that?
Kim McGrigg: Oh, Kickstarter is really professional begging. So, I basically just bothered the heck out of everyone who I've ever met in my entire life. Don't get me wrong. There's a lot of people in the Kickstarter community that back projects, people I don't know. I had plenty of those backers. But the way that you really get the motion going is you start with your networks, and then you ask them to share with their networks. I had a pretty low ask. I started at $25, and then you actually got a game, if it was successful. So it was really, like a low entry point for people.
Kim McGrigg: And so, the amazing thing about it is, then I felt so confident placing the order because I basically had like 400 preorders to go ahead and ship immediately, and that felt great.
Patrick Rauland: Yeah, absolutely.
Kim McGrigg: So I think the other thing that to remember, and I did a lot of reading about this too. But Kickstarters, they start really strong, and you get really excited. You're like, “Oh look at this. I'm going to hit my goal in a week,” and then the middle, it gets so slow. It's really sad. Then at the end, you have to do a big push, and then usually … Then Kickstarter starts to show you … You start to show up in different search, like things that are almost at goal, things that are almost ending, and that's where you got a lot of interest from people that that are not connected with you.
Where Do You Sell?
Patrick Rauland: Got it. Okay, so, I've asked a lot of questions about Kickstarter to other people, so I won't go into it super detail here. One of the things that I do think is cool is you mentioned The Wizard's Chest and you mentioned one of the other interviews you did. So you got your game into a retail store here in Denver, yeah, again, which is called The Wizard's Chest. I mean, how did you … So it seems like you mostly sell to your website, and you also got into one or two retail stores? The Wizard's Chest?
Kim McGrigg: Right, right.
Patrick Rauland: How did you do that?
Kim McGrigg: I did that, because, first of all, I did play test there. Then I learned that one of the owners of The Wizard's Chest is also a game designer. So I asked for a meeting, and he just shared a lot of knowledge with me. Super, super generous with his knowledge. Then I just kept them in a loop on absolutely everything. I guess I befriended them. I felt like, at a point, they were committed to my success. They were really rooting for me. And so, yeah, and then they did place an order, and they sold out.
Patrick Rauland: Oh wow.
Kim McGrigg: So they placed a couple orders. It's just been terrific. If I'm going to do an event, I let them know. You know, that kind of thing. So it's just been … They're just great people. There's no magic.
Patrick Rauland: Yeah. Oh great. I mean, it sounds like … I mean, as you said, Kickstarter's professional begging, and in this case, The Wizard's Chest, they're holding your game because you know them. It sounds like making that personal network is super important.
Kim McGrigg: Oh, I couldn't have done any of it without these people, and they … like I said, I just can't say enough about how generous … I mean, I can't believe … You'd think they'd be like competitive nature or something. Maybe they didn't I'd ever make it. But they just … so, so willing. I think it's because they're passionate about games. They like to talk about it.
What's Next For You?
Patrick Rauland: I love it. So what are your plans in the board game world moving forward? Do you want to do … I mean, are you even going to do another game? Or are you going to go use your entrepreneurial magic in some other industry?
Kim McGrigg: Well, that's a really great question. Right now, the stage that I'm in with this game is figuring out how to sell them. So I had ordered 2,500, which, if you're wondering, takes up a whole lot of your garage. I had to get to that quantity to get the price per unit down. So I've sold between I think around 850 or 900 so far. I've only had them since September, so not even a year. I feel like it's going really well. I do have another game in mind, and I'm actually … I've been holding back because I don't want to take energy away from this.
Kim McGrigg: So at some point, I think we're going to see a second game. I just need to figure out if I'm going to try to sell that idea, or if I'm going to do a repeat of everything I just did.
Patrick Rauland: What are the factors that you're considering with that? Because those are very, very different things, right? Selling it to a publisher is very different than running it yourself. I'm curious. Was the process so painful that you don't want to do it again? Or what are you considering?
Kim McGrigg: Well, the first one I did not even consider sharing the idea because I really wanted to do it. I was just very committed to the process in learning how to do it. Also, I felt, like I said, I was really excited about the game. So it was like my baby, and I wasn't willing to give it up. So I don't know. The second one, I just don't know that I have the time to give both of them the love that they need. So I'm struggling with that idea a bit.
Overrated Underrated Game
Patrick Rauland: Got it. Got it. Okay, so, I like to end my show with a little game, and it's called Overrated/Underrated. Do you know what this is?
Kim McGrigg: No.
Patrick Rauland: Okay, so basically, I'm going to say a word or phrase, and you need to take a position if you think it's overrated or underrated. So if I said, “Chocolate milk,” you would be like, “Underrated because it's made by brown cows or something fun, silly, or whatever your opinion is.” Got it?
Kim McGrigg: Okay, yes.
Patrick Rauland: All right. So Wizard's Chest here in Denver, is it overrated or underrated?
Kim McGrigg: Underrated. It is like … Okay, it's like Disney World but closer and cheaper and air conditioned.
Patrick Rauland: And air conditioned, yes. That's fair, and it's summer here in Denver. That air condition feels good. All right. Now, I will explain … So Boulder, as in the city of Boulder, which, for those of you who don't know, is just north of Denver. Is it overrated or underrated?
Kim McGrigg: Oh, that's tough. I'm going to say underrated not because of the city of Boulder, but because I love to hike in that area. It is beautiful, beautiful country.
Patrick Rauland: Totally. All right. Selling games on your website, overrated or underrated?
Kim McGrigg: Underrated. It's a blast. I shipped seven games today, which is a lot for me in one day, and it's like Christmas.
Patrick Rauland: Now, do you have one of those? Do you have an app on your phone that goes “cha-ching” every time you get a sale?
Kim McGrigg: No, I don't. Actually, most of my sales come through Amazon, which is really terrific because they take care of the … They do some charge for shipping, and they collect sales tax, so that's pretty. But I do always have my little Square on me. So if I happen to be out and someone wants a game, I'm ready to sell you one at any moment.
Patrick Rauland: Well, that's fantastic. So you sell on your own website and on Amazon and through Square when appropriate?
Kim McGrigg: Yep, yep, yeah. I've done a few little gift shows, and it goes pretty well, yeah.
Patrick Rauland: I'm just curious. Do you use Amazon FBA where they store everything and send it for you? Or do they take all the orders and you still send them yourself?
Kim McGrigg: Yeah, I'm still fulfilling all my own orders. I'm just not at a volume yet where it makes sense to pay them to store it.
Patrick Rauland: Got it. Cool, got it. Makes sense. All right. Last one is, entrepreneurship itself, overrated or underrated?
Kim McGrigg: Oh, it is underrated. We need more young people to get excited about entrepreneurship. I mean, it's such a hot topic right now. But the truth of the matter is a lot of young people are risk-averse. It can certainly be scary. But there's nothing else like it. We need big thinkers.
Patrick Rauland: Well, thank you for being on the show, Kim. Where can people find you and your game online?
Kim McGrigg: It's at notaproblemgame.com.
Patrick Rauland: All right. Thank you again. By the way if you, dear listener, liked this podcast, please leave us a review on iTunes or wherever you're listening to this. If you do leave a review, Kim said that she'd invent a crazy invention just for you. She can't promise it will work, but she did say she'd come up with something. So you can visit our site at indieboardgamedesigners.com. You can follow me on Twitter. I am @BFTrick. And until next time, happy designing everyone. Bye-bye.